Thrust Vector Not Compatible With Twin Engine 230 Models - But Compatible With Scarab Twin Engine - WHY??

[Distorted]

Can anyone tell me why this works on one and not the other?


I've looked at my 230 and the Scarab twin engine boats and I can't see any reason why the trust vector wouldn't fit the 230 ( if it fits a twin engine Scarab).
The components are identical as far as I can tell.

For Reference - 2008 Seadoo 230 Challenger


For Reference - 2018 Twin Engine Scarab 255 ID



If it fits one,what is the conflict with the other?

Can anyone shed some light?

 

[JPass]

I wonder if there's a clearance issue between the tops of the buckets and the bottom of the platform? The distance seems smaller on the Doo, but it's hard to tell from the pics as the buckets appear to be in different positions as well.

 

[slaizer2000]

The mounting ring built in to the thrust vectors slides over the nozzle when mounting. I wasn't able to get these for my islandia due to my nozzles having a cut out in them. The ring would have blocked that opening.
I ended up having to get cobra jet fins (older model with no up/down movement depending on how much water thrust you are using). I can't tell if from your pictures if your nozzle's have a cut out in them.

for reference this the the cut out in the nozzle I am referring to.

 

[Distorted]

The mounting ring built in to the thrust vectors slides over the nozzle when mounting. I wasn't able to get these for my islandia due to my nozzles having a cut out in them. The ring would have blocked that opening.
I ended up having to get cobra jet fins (older model with no up/down movement depending on how much water thrust you are using). I can't tell if from your pictures if your nozzle's have a cut out in them.

for reference this the the cut out in the nozzle I am referring to.

View attachment 46696

I wonder what the cut out is for and why none of the Scarab's have it.

Speculation...
perhaps to fight cavitation or maybe to help direct the flow for reverse.... or maybe to shape the wake for surf?


I just went ahead and ordered a dual seadoo thrust vector kit.
I will first see how far off the fit is, and if it's terrible I'll source two new nozzles from newer boat models and give that a shot.

 

[slaizer2000]

I wonder what the cut out is for and why none of the Scarab's have it.

Speculation...
perhaps to fight cavitation or maybe to help direct the flow for reverse.... or maybe to shape the wake for surf?


I just went ahead and ordered a dual seadoo thrust vector kit.
I will first see how far off the fit is, and if it's terrible I'll source two new nozzles from newer boat models and give that a shot.

Yup I couldn't find out what those cutouts did and what impact they would have.
Please update me if you notice any side effects from the thrust vectors.
The one thing I don't like about the stationary cobra fins is that at high speed when you turn there is much more drag on the steering wheel and the back end of the boat doesn't whip around as much. Probably why the thrust vectors and the newer cobra fins force the fins up out of the water at higher thrust.
Minor inconvenience compared to the better reverse, idle and no power control.

 

[Distorted]

it is my understanding that the Challenger 210, with either 430 HP or 510 HP is compatible with the Thrust Vector systems.

With that in mind, I was going through online microfiche for the various twin engine Sea-Doo boats, comparing parts, analyzing the steering nozzles in the pump diagram and I found something interesting.

My Boat is a 2009 Challenger Wake 510 HP ( 2X 255 HP Engines)
Thrust Vector states their fin adapter is not compatible with any of the 230 models.

Parts Link: OEM Parts > SeaDoo > Boats > 2009 > 2009 Sea-Doo 230 Wake, 2 X 255 HO




Comparing to a 2010 Challenger 210 SE 430HP
Thrust Vector States This boat is compatible with their twin engine fin kit.

Parts Link: OEM Parts > SeaDoo > Boats > 2010 > 2010 Sea-Doo 210 SE 430 2 X 215 1503SCIC ETC





I then decided to compare the 2012 230 Wake 520HP model, which had a lot of changes and was Sea-Doos final year for this boat. It should also be noted that this was the year Sea-doo announced they were discontinuing their entire boat line.

Comparing to a 2012 Challenger Wake 520 HP ( 2X 260 HP Engines)
Thrust Vector states their fin adapter is not compatible with any of the 230 models.
( I am going on assumption here but I believe this to be a BLANKET STATEMENT from thrust vector as I am willing to believe they probably didn't know the nozzle changes on the 2012, and assumed all years were the same - and am willing to also assume the their twin engine kit will actually fit only the 2012 challenger 230 and no other challenger 230 years)

Parts Link: OEM Parts > SeaDoo > Boats > 2012 > 2012 Sea-Doo 230 Wake 520


It should also be noted that the the pump, the cone, and the impeller are different part numbers here too. But the nozzle itself should be cross compatible (in theory) to the older Sea-Doo Challenger 230s.

By going back to nozzles without the cutout is the same as installing a reduction nozzle on a Jet-ski. You usually get more top end from a higher flow rate and a slightly lower overall rpm. Its been said that the 2012 model has a slightly better hole shot and 2 MPH top speed over the earlier Challenger 230s. I am willing to bet the non-cutout nozzles play a part in that.



Next Step - Testing
I have ordered the Thrust Vector twin engine kit for the Challenger 210.

I need to now source 2X 271001787 Sea-Doo Steering Nozzles.
(so far I can't find anyone who has stock and is willing to ship to Canada due to regional policy with seadoo. and my local parts store says it's on back order)

EDIT - UPDATE
I have placed an order for these two nozzels item with EnergyPowersports.
They said they could get them next week -- Fingers Crossed.

 

[Distorted]

Wow - Thrust Vector's arrived quickly!

Order was placed Thursday evening after hours.
Shipped Friday from Florida. Package arrived in Toronto Canada on Monday around lunch time.

Crazy quick service.

Thanks @jetboatpilot

 

[slaizer2000]

I've been thinking a little about the cutouts and I am wondering if they are there on dual engines for stability. If you have 2 nozzles and one engine is cranking out more water it could possibly make the boat shift left or right. Some water going out the sides on each nozzle may keep the back end straight so it's not shifting. I would imagine it's impossible to have the exact amount of water coming out of both engines at any given time. Fins may stabilize this until you are at full speed when the fin is pushed up out of the water.

Only speculating but am still very curious on the outcome. Fins may prevent this when they are down but if they completely come out of the water at full speed then you might loose some control.

 

[jetboatpilot]

The answer to this question is that the Islandia and all 230 nozzles have a cut away feature on the inboard side of their deflector nozzles. This makes it impossible to attach the clamp which holds the fins in place.

Our best guess as to why this feature was added to 230's and not other boats was to help maintain speed in a turn.

In a scenario where the boat were turned to the left at high speed, the left nozzle would turn left but the cut away feature would not bend the water flow to the left. The water flow would remain straight which would help to maintain speed. The right nozzle which is also turned left in this scenario would bend the flow of water as normal and would provide steering control.

As for the Scarab and Vortex models, I am not sure why they opted not to use this type of nozzle on their larger boats. They may have opted for less complexity in their parts supply chain and simply chose to have their powertrains all come from BRP ready to install in a single or twin engine boat and be compatible with all hull sizes.

 

[slaizer2000]

The answer to this question is that the Islandia and all 230 nozzles have a cut away feature on the inboard side of their deflector nozzles. This makes it impossible to attach the clamp which holds the fins in place.

Our best guess as to why this feature was added to 230's and not other boats was to help maintain speed in a turn.

In a scenario where the boat were turned to the left at high speed, the left nozzle would turn left but the cut away feature would not bend the water flow to the left. The water flow would remain straight which would help to maintain speed. The right nozzle which is also turned left in this scenario would bend the flow of water as normal and would provide steering control.

As for the Scarab and Vortex models, I am not sure why they opted not to use this type of nozzle on their larger boats. They may have opted for less complexity in their parts supply chain and simply chose to have their powertrains all come from BRP ready to install in a single or twin engine boat and be compatible with all hull sizes.

That actually makes a great deal of sense. Perhaps Seadoo wanted to try to mimic the effects of turns in a jet ski with their jet boats where the back end whips around quickly.. Don't know if the other 2 companies make jet skis? Thanks.

 

[Distorted]

Shelter In Place Post - UPDATE
Covid 19 Lockdown 2020.

My nozzles arrived a couple weeks ago. But I had a 'Honey-Do' list that was a mile long so I'm just getting around to the install today.


The install was simple. Remove 4 bolts. Swap inserts and hardware, and reinstall nozzles.



Now I'm running 2012 challenger 230 nozzles on my 2009 challenger 230. They are a direct fit and have not cut out which prevents the installation of @jetboatpilot Thrust Vector system.


Don't forget to use blue loctite on everything when you reassemble and I recommend to torque to spec.

Next, was to install the Twin Engine BRP Thrust Vector kit. Easy peasy.





Thrust Vector Project Complete


The surf tabs are a work-in-progress for another post

 

[slaizer2000]

Nice. Id be interested in your feedback and performance and if you think the missing cutouts on the nozzles create any type of negative impact.

 

[Distorted]

Nice. Id be interested in your feedback and performance and if you think the missing cutouts on the nozzles create any type of negative impact.

Once Covid19 is over, I'll be able to report back.

But since these nozzles were standard on the 2012 challenger 230 wake, I don't foresee there being any detrimental impact.

 

[jetboatpilot]

Thanks for the writeup. Very helpful!

 

[roju6]

Also interested to hear your feedback on the handling after this swap, both at high speed, and slow speed maneuvers like docking.

 

[Premix]

How come the twin engine kits use four rudders? Wouldn’t one rudder per steering nozzle be adequate?

 

[Distorted]

The Thrust Vectors work as advertised.

The boat is a bit more manageable at low speeds as well as docking.

The nozzle change to accommodate the Thrust Vectors seem to netted me a quicker hole-shot to bring the boat to plane. Of course I'm using my well-tuned and scientific, "seat-of-my-pants" dynograph

High speed performance seem unaffected, overall.
I can still skip and throw the boat about when I want.
BUT i noticed that when towing a heavy skier, I feel like I have more control. The skier doesn't seem to affect the backed of the boat as much.


We have a Locke system here in Ontario that is 386KM long with 44 lockes in total.
Trent-Severn Waterway

This used to a tiresome venture to safety operate the boat through the channels as the majority of the system is no wake. Last weekend we went through and the Thrust Vectors really helped. I was able to enjoy the trip more because of them.


-----------------------------------

As for the Surf Tabs, I ended up removing them. There were pro's and cons to having them. They allowed me to create a gorgeous surf wave. Reverse was still usable. But, the boat would not longer turn super tight, The turn radius was cut in half.
The only way to turn the boat as tight as factory required altering the surf tab angle. during a turn. My basic controller doesn't have the ability to do that, so it was all manual when turning.

Going to play around with the design a bit and see what I can come up with.