Rave valve solenoid problem

[diggy]

Pulling my hair out on this one. Hope someone can help....

I have a 2001 GTX DI

I had to remove the engine due to the starter drive, it seized up. When I removed the engine I broke the nipple on the air compressor, this was for the line that goes to the rave valve solenoid. I replaced the compressor top and connected back up. Now the line keeps blowing apart, not coming off, it is blowing a hole in the plastic line. I have replaced the line and it only takes a few minutes for it to blow a hole in it again. I took the solenoid off and cleaned the valve section to make sure there was no debris in it. I then reinstalled the solenoid and it happened again. I then applied power to the solenoid and it is clicking. I also checked the fuses at the MPEG and they are all good. So I assume the solenoid is working, because it would not click if it had shorted out. Am I missing something? Is there a way to test the power to the solenoid? does it get power at idle? The nipple that the hose, from the compressor to the valve, (nipple is screwed on the valve) has a small hole in it. It is not the diameter of the nipple it is a pin size hole. Does this seem right?

Any help or ideas would be great, thanks

 

[Carlangas1989]

Unplug hose and try to crank see how much air you got coming out...then unplug the other side of the solenoid with the air on and see if you getting air out of the solenoid

 

[diggy]

I thought the same way. I unplugged for the compressor and there is pulsing air pressure. Then un plugged other sides of valve and the is no air coming out. So I tested the solenoid using 12 volts and it does click. Wondering if the solenoid gets power at idle? Or if there is a test for power to the solenoid

 

[- BiRkS_]

I think he means unplug the hose BEFORE the solenoid and see if you have air coming out. If not, you may have a melted. or kinked hose, that would explain why the hose is bursting. The Raves dont get power until 5 grand or so before they are commanded open. The computer tells them when to open.

 

[diggy]

The line that bursts is the one from the compressor to the solenoid valve, you could call it the air supply line to the solenoid. I have removed the air supply line before the valve and there is pulsing air coming from the compressor. Then I reconnected the supply line to the valve and then removed the two lines that send air out of the valve and there was no air coming out of either exit nipple. So the air is getting to the valve but is not being allowed through. My question is; is there a test I can try on the in coming power to the solenoid? How many volts should be getting to the valve at idle?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Is there a pressure relief valve in the compressor head? Or maybe the output feeds more than RAVE solenoid, like something else through an orifice? Sounds like way too much pressure. Just guessing, I'm have no direct DI experience.

 

[diggy]

The output on the compressor head has a small line going to the RAVE solenoid and a large line going to the fuel injection rail. There is no pressure adjustment to the compressor. The line to the fuel injection rail is not kinked/damaged or leaking. It is just the line to the RAVE solenoid keeps blowing a hole in it. I tried using a line volt meter (the kind that just touches the line and tells if there is power in it by changing light colors) and it is getting power to the solenoid while the engine is running. Just not sure if it is enough voltage to the solenoid.

I hate to take this to a dealer for repair but I have no idea right now. I think it is due to the electrical portion of the solenoid, but I do not want to just throw parts at it to see if it fixes it.

Any other ideas?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I don't believe the RAVE solenoid is your problem, it's not supposed to open until later on in the throttle, like over 4000RPM, not sure exactly when it allows the air pressure into the raves bellows but somewhere over 4000 RPM, mine seems to come in at around 5000 RPM on my carb sportster motor. So if your pressure feed to the solenoid is being blown apart it's b/c there's too much air pressure IMO.

There is an air pressure spec of 90 PSI +/- 2PSI during cranking, measure the pressure and compare.

Perhaps the oil return line from the air pump to the oil tank could be part of the picture here, that air has to have somewhere to go besides just the RAVE solenoid, which doesn't require much air volume at all, most of your air probably is used by the fuel rail air injectors.

How about the air pressure relief valve, is it correctly installed? Or possibly the air pressure regulator in the fuel rail, assuming there must be an issue with too much pressure. I see in the service manual the air pressure regulator holds the fuel rail air pressure to 80 PSI, and there is an air return from the fuel rail, I'd check these out to see if there's something not quite right or incorrectly assembled.

 

[diggy]

Sportster, you just gave an idea that made a light go off in my head. There has to be a relief valve, regulator and return in the fuel injection system. Just checked the microfiche and it shows a regulator and a return line on the injection rail. If there is a problem with the return line or regulator it would back up from the fuel rail and take it out on the weakest point, which is the line to the solenoid valve. I am going to check it as soon as I get home.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Yeah, I'd want to look the air pressure relief valve(and associated pneumatic plumbing) over, the fuel system might not work well enough for the engine to run if the injection rail air pressure regulator isn't working?

Here's one for ya, one of my greatest fears when working on stuff like this is a mud dobber might crawl up inside of a fuel line or something looking for a home while the thing is apart waiting for parts to arrive.

Wish I had some better ideas....

 

[diggy]

It was a great idea. I checked all lines to the fuel rail and they are all clear. I also checked all the other lines and they at clear. Pulled the solenoid valve assembly and I can not blow through it.

I have no idea.

When the line bursts, It runs great at high rpm's, but dies at idle.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

My understanding is:

The RAVES are vented through the solenoid body to atmosphere when the solenoid is de-energized. This allows the rave bellows to relax. At this point, the air pressure source is shut off and does not escape through the solenoid to atmosphere (waste not, want not, principle).

The MPEM provides a ground path for solenoid current in order to energize the solenoid. Once the solenoid is energized by the MPEM by making this connection to ground(the solenoid normally has constant power to the other terminal), the air from the pump moves through the solenoid and into the rave bellows. So, assuming I understand correctly, the air from the pump is never vented through the rave solenoid directly to atmosphere.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Hmm, I'm looking at the diagram here and it appears there's a bit more to it than I previously thought, might have to retract part or all of what I said previously until I can study this in further detail.

Diggy, you might be right, there is something I'm trying to comprehend here on the diagram, and it might have something to do with the plumbing that's supposed to return excess pump lubricant to the oil tank.

Here's the first part of the test procedure:

Rave solenoid leakage/voltage test(2001 DI service manual):

Disconnect rave solenoid supply hose from compressor
Pressurize rave solenoid supply hose to 10~15 PSI
Wait some time to see if pressure drops, if pressure drops, check hose for leaky connections.
Otherwise, the rave solenoid is leaking and should be replaced.

 

[diggy]

So I thought I had it fixed. The solenoid is now cycling 2 times when it is turned off. I went to the local seadoo shop and picked up the factory size tubing, installed it and ran it again on the water hose. No problems seen. Took to the lake and 5 - 10 minutes later POP, the line burst again. I give up, taking to the dealer now.

 

[shaneb]

I am having the same problem what did you find out at the dealer? any help would be much appreciated

 

[diggy]

To follow up on this;

I found a used solenoid/valve and installed it. Ran it on the hose and no problem, only ran for a few minutes. Took to the lake and ran for about 10 minutes and POP, it blew again. I talked to my local shop and Seadoo does not give him support on PWC, only sport crafts. So he is going to call his friend at Seadoo and try to pick his brain on this, hopefully he is able to get some information out of him.

I am thinking there is not enough power going to the solenoid, but can not find any specs on it.

I will post the solution once I find out.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I see some kind of adjustment screw in the top of the air compressor, do you have some idea of this screw's purpose?

 

[diggy]

The screw on top of the compressor head is only for mounting the line that goes to the fuel injection rail. I broke the nipple off of my original compressor head and had to buy a new one, I removed the screw from the original head to put on the new head and there is nothing inside the hole.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

The screw on top of the compressor head is only for mounting the line that goes to the fuel injection rail. I broke the nipple off of my original compressor head and had to buy a new one, I removed the screw from the original head to put on the new head and there is nothing inside the hole.

Oh I see, it's a stud and nut setup, lol. They call it an adjuster screw for some reason, in the parts list.

So I guess then, the two outlets on the air pump both see the same pressure from the piston. One of the outlets is a sturdy high pressure hose and the other is a flimsy plastic hose with no reinforcement mesh. I guess the small hose must be fed through an orifice in the head and should flow continuously so as the pressure doesn't cause the hose to burst.

If this is the case, you could place a T in the line and bleed off some of the pressure through an orifice if you can't get that solenoid to bleed it off. Looks like there should be 90psi while cranking, on the braided line feeding air to the injector manifold....

That RAVE solenoid should have 12v on it constantly on one side(purple/grey), the MPEM pulls the other side low and sinks the current which opens the air solenoid sending air to the rave valves to force them open.

 

[diggy]

I just looked at the parts diagram and it does label it as an adjuster screw, odd? I am going to check my old compressor head when I get home tonight and recheck to see if there are any air passages in it.

Thanks for the spec on the purple/grey wire, I am going to check that also.

 

[diggy]

I checked the compressor head and there are no ports inside of the adjuster screw area.

Tested the power to the solenoid and there is 11.7 volts when it is not running.

Anyone know what the voltage reads at the battery when running? Also anyone with a DI model; do you have a round check valve in the line out of the top port on the valve? Mine does and I was wondering if it might be stuck closed.

 

[Strizzo]

I know the non di 951 has a check valve, but it gets it's pressure from te crankcase pulse rater than the air compressor. It is to hold pressure for the solenoid to pressurize the raves when the solenoid opens. When the solenoid is closed, the rave side should be open to atmosphere via the vent.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I checked the compressor head and there are no ports inside of the adjuster screw area.

Tested the power to the solenoid and there is 11.7 volts when it is not running.

Anyone know what the voltage reads at the battery when running? Also anyone with a DI model; do you have a round check valve in the line out of the top port on the valve? Mine does and I was wondering if it might be stuck closed.

Your battery should be a minimum of 12.5v at static rest, if lower than that I reject the battery until it's been charged. I won't allow a boat out the door if it's less than 12.5v, unless the customer wants it that way.

So at your solenoid valve, it cannot be higher than your battery voltage.

Anyway, here's the air plumbing diagram I'm looking at for the purpose of our discussion, unfortunately in some ways it's not as good as actually laying eyes on the real thing:

http://fiche.seadoowarehouse.com/se...sp?Type=18&make=seadoopwc&a=225&b=16&Action=O

there are no ports inside of the adjuster screw area.

Okay, how about the barb for the solenoid air, is there a fixed orifice which limits air flow through the barb, say maybe the diameter of a medium paperclip wire or smaller?

 

[diggy]

After your previous post I checked the same microfiche. Looking at the line off the top of the valve, mine has a check valve. I think I am going to check and see if the valve allows pressure through it, but will not be able to do it until tomorrow. My doo is in a storage lot and it is not close.

 

[diggy]

Forgot to reply about the barb. The bottom inlet to the valve has a small pin sized hole in it, but the top outlet does not have any restriction