Oil Filter Cap O-ring Blows Out...

[Duane72]

Working on a 2002 GTX, non supercharged 4-tec. Took it out on the pond and wasn't long the oil light came on. Brought it in and checked around. I found the top o-ring on the oil filter cap popped out and oil was spewing from there when running. I pulled the cap off, checked the o-rings and reassembled it. When I started it up the oring popped out immediate. Now when I say popped out I mean only enough to allow oil to flow from the cap.

There were no nicks or tears in the o-ring and the cap wasn't cracked. The o-rings didn't feel stretched either. I'm going to order new o-rings, but want to check if there may be another cause as well? Any ideas?

For info sake, we just rebuilt the pump. The skis only got an hour in it maybe since. New wear ring, bearings, carbon seal, etc. so the driveshaft was out of the ski. Have no idea how that would affect it but I'm covering my bases. I pulled the dipstick out a little ways also to make sure the crankcase could breath and didn't make a difference.

 

[Jojorico]

Try the the shut off solenoid on front of the motor. The way to test the 'oil shutoff switch' as they describe it (TOPS valve) is to take the seat off, put your head down by the front of the motor and put the key in ... you should hear a distinct click as the TOPS valve kicks in ... about 30 seconds after you pull the key out, it goes back down, and you can try again to make sure it working.

 

[Duane72]

Try the the shut off solenoid on front of the motor. The way to test the 'oil shutoff switch' as they describe it (TOPS valve) is to take the seat off, put your head down by the front of the motor and put the key in ... you should hear a distinct click as the TOPS valve kicks in ... about 30 seconds after you pull the key out, it goes back down, and you can try again to make sure it working.

That would cause pressure in the oil filter like that? How does that work? (not doubting you, just curious as I like to learn all I can about these machines)

 

[Jojorico]

It controls the crank pressor in the motor

 

[Duane72]

Stumped good!

Ok guys, I'm STUMPED! I checked the TOPS valve. It clicks when you put the key on and clicks off 8 to 15 seconds after you remove it. I changed the orings on the filter cap and checked it thoroughly for cracks, etc. Started it up and IMMEDIATELY it pushed the o-ring out a little and began spewing oil. I'm not sure what else to check to be honest. I checked for codes and none were stored. It fires up and runs great.

Could the TOPS valve be clicking but stuck or something? Can I pull it off and check it's operation somehow?

 

[Dennis]

OK. Lets get on track here.
First off, the TOPS valve has absolutely nothing to do with engine oil pressure, oil filter cap or "o"rings.
You apparently have excessive oil pressure.
Have you just had the engine apart? What is the history on the ski?
Remove oil filter element and then start engine and see if it still pushes out the "o" ring. If not then filter is clogged.
Your oil pressure regulator (in the bottom of rear engine cover) may be stuck.

 

[Duane72]

OK. Lets get on track here.
First off, the TOPS valve has absolutely nothing to do with engine oil pressure, oil filter cap or "o"rings.
You apparently have excessive oil pressure.
Have you just had the engine apart? What is the history on the ski?
Remove oil filter element and then start engine and see if it still pushes out the "o" ring. If not then filter is clogged.
Your oil pressure regulator (in the bottom of rear engine cover) may be stuck.

Thank you for the reply Dennis. If the TOPS valve stuck closed would it not over-pressure the crank case? That valve seals off the crankcase in the event the ski rolls correct?

I just rebuilt the pump at the end of last season. Put it in the water and had a torn OPAS boot so it kept taking on water and couldn't ride it much. Repaired it over the off-season. Started it this season, it kept giving an oil light and beep. I replaced the rear sensor and it solved the problem. The ski starts right up and runs good. Only had it out once or twice and it started giving the oil light and going into limp mode again. This time there was oil being blown out of the filter housing causing the warning to come on because of low oil. If I topped off the oil it ran perfect again until the oil was low enough to trip the oil caution again. Which didn't take long as the oil comes out pretty steady.

I didn't try it without the filter in it. I'll have to do that. I did take the filter out, put my hand over one end to seal it and blew through the other end (after wiping it good of course!) to see how clogged it seemed. It took a little bit to push my breath through it, but didn't seem enough to be considered clogged. Running it without it would tell better I am sure.

Thanks!

 

[Dennis]

A defective TOPS valve could cause excessive AIR pressure in the crankcase but not excessive OIL pressure. :cheers:

 

[pwgsx]

I am thinking there is a extra o ring on the oil filter or at the bottom of the oil filter housing that was stuck when it was changed last. Take a pic of the oil filter cover when you have it installed. If its down correctly there is no way the cover o ring can pop out.

 

[Duane72]

I checked the internal seat when I changed the o-ring. There wasn't one stuck there. The cap seats down all the way as I can't tighten the bolt any further without damaging it.

Dennis, I'll try removing the oil filter this afternoon and running it. I would love for it to be as simple as a clogged filter!

 

[pwgsx]

I checked the internal seat when I changed the o-ring. There wasn't one stuck there. The cap seats down all the way as I can't tighten the bolt any further without damaging it.

Dennis, I'll try removing the oil filter this afternoon and running it. I would love for it to be as simple as a clogged filter!

Clogged with what? There is no way a filter would clog with normal riding unless something is really wrong.

 

[Duane72]

Well, I wondered the same thing but I am willing to try anything at this point! And I did... and it still spews oil.

I am at my witts ends guys!!! Is there ANYTHING I could be missing here?? What on earth would cause such high oil pressure and why would a sensor not go off if it was?? Could it be a bad cap? Should I try doubling the small o-ring??

 

[pwgsx]

Is the cap bent? Housing cracked? Wrong filter?
Post a pic of it when you have it all bolted down, top and side view, pics of when it blows out. That has to be some crazy pressure for the o ring to squeeze thru that space. What if you ride with the dip stick loose and not in all the way where it can release pressure (if that's the issue). I have never done this so not sure if oil will come out of the hole but its worth a shot unless someone has a better idea.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I'm wondering if maybe an oil gallery is blocked(sort of like the earlier suggestion of oil pressure regulator), do you think it might have something to do with the oil pressure sensor you replaced, screwed in too far or something like that?

As far as the oil pressure regulator goes (spring loaded check ball), these are usually set up to bypass oil back to the oil pump inlet if pressure goes too high, and there is usually a second spring loaded check ball to allow oil to bypass the oil filter and go straight to the crank if the filter is clogged (usually when oil/engine are cold).

Does the filter o-ring blow out at idle or only if you to rev it? What weight oil are you using?

I've seen metal canister type oil filters split before due to a stuck regulator check ball, some Fords used to do it once in awhile.

I've never seen one of these motors though, just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[Dennis]

What you need to do is check oil pressure. The sensor is not going to warn you of hi oil pressure just low oil pressure.

I'm betting that your oil pressure is real high and it's because the oil pressure regulator in the rear engine cover is stuck.
I say this assuming you dont have some kind of super thick oil in the engine or that someone has just reassembled this engine and/or gaskets incorrectly causing some kind of blockage like Sportster is referring to.

Oil pressure should be around 30 psi at idle and approx. 55 psi when you rev the engine

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Oil pressure should be around 30 psi at idle and approx. 55 psi when you rev the engine

Those numbers seem like typical figures for an rngine at operating temp, you didn't specify.

It's not unusual to see up to 80psi with cold oil, I'd be concerned of there was more than that b/c many metal can filters can't take much more than 130psi or so before they split.

So yes, definitely put a gauge on the oil pump outlet side, preferably on oil filter inlet if possible. Sure sounds like spring loaded pressure relief poppet is stuck closed, or something along those lines. Or maybe everything's okay and it's just the wrong o-ring on the filter cover?

 

[Duane72]

Ok, I can try and get a hold of an oil pressure guage and check the oil pressure. Not sure where on earth to install it but I can check the manual for that. If it is a stuck check ball... am I looking at pulling he engine open to fix it or is there another option? I'm betting if I tell the owner it's a stuck check valve, it's going to get traded in. lol

 

[Dennis]

You would remove the oil pressure switch and install the gauge there. There is another place on the rear of the cylinder head. It location is hard to describe but I think the manual shows a picture.

The engine doesn't have to be removed in order to access the pressure regulator but it's still a pain to get to.

But first things first. Check the oil pressure and report back. :cheers:

 

[Duane72]

Ok... FINALLY got the GTX down to my house from the owner and have the weather to get out and check the pressure. Going to hit that this evening.

 

[red2blue]

I've actually run an entire year with just the large bottom ring on the cover...never leaked a drop.

 

[Duane72]

I've actually run an entire year with just the large bottom ring on the cover...never leaked a drop.

You mean left off the small lower one and just used the one around the outside top? I think that would be fine for me as well if there wasn't so much pressure.


Hey guys, if the pressure was high enough to blow out the oring wouldn't the high pressure sensor send a code? I am now wondering if the cap is just not seating down far enough for some reason. Maybe I should try to find a thicker oring and try it.

I CANNOT get to the pressure sensor under the intake without taking the intake off I don't think. I cant get my hand far enough in there to even feel where the harness plugs into it much less guide a socket on it.

 

[Duane72]

I'm wondering if maybe an oil gallery is blocked(sort of like the earlier suggestion of oil pressure regulator), do you think it might have something to do with the oil pressure sensor you replaced, screwed in too far or something like that?

As far as the oil pressure regulator goes (spring loaded check ball), these are usually set up to bypass oil back to the oil pump inlet if pressure goes too high, and there is usually a second spring loaded check ball to allow oil to bypass the oil filter and go straight to the crank if the filter is clogged (usually when oil/engine are cold).

Does the filter o-ring blow out at idle or only if you to rev it? What weight oil are you using?

I've seen metal canister type oil filters split before due to a stuck regulator check ball, some Fords used to do it once in awhile.

I've never seen one of these motors though, just throwing some ideas out there.

Sportster, I just realized I missed this post back when I was dealing with this originally last year. I used the Bombardier 10W40 OEM oil for the oil change. The orings are oem too. They look the same as the ones I took off only black instead of orange. Tried the orange ones tonight and it blew out immediately like before. At idle and the second you start it up.

Can I check the oil pressure at the sensor near the oil fill cap or does it HAVE to be the one down under the intake?

 

[Duane72]

Ok everyone... I'm an idiot. *rolls eyes* The sensor on the non supercharged engines is right in the open. I changed the sensor last year you would think I would remember that. I was following the wire for the knock sensor. Ugh. Plus I just found in the shop manual that there is a port for checking oil pressure built right into the filter housing.

SO... I'll be checking all that out tomorrow.

 

[red2blue]

You mean left off the small lower one and just used the one around the outside top?...

All told...one o-ring on the cap bolt....two on the cap...thicker one in the groove...thinner at the top edge.

I've gone w/o the thinner being at the top.

 

[pwgsx]

From my countless hours trying to figure out why I had pressure in the valve cover that was not venting, I found the TOPS valve was not re-opening if the boat sat off but with the dess key on the post. That was air pressure though. You have oil pressure that is blowing the dipstick out along with oil. That is most likely the pressure reg on the bottom of the engine.