Negative voltage from Regulator?

[bigJake]

Testing Rectifier/Regulator in '96 GSX and '97 GSX

On the '97 I get -15 to -20 volts between red wire from regulator to battery neg. when revving I know anything over 15 is bad but why is the voltage negative? (No I didn't have the meter wires reversed ) Is this just a bad regulator or indicative of something more? Swapped yellow wires from the stator wouldn't cause negative voltage would it?

Resistance between all 3 yellow wires from the stator is .6 ohms
Yellow wires to ground have infinite resistance
I didn't measure AC voltage from stator.

On the '96 I get between 12-17 V DC across the battery when revving so I need a new regulator there too. Resistance between yellow wires is also .6 ohms on this ski.

I think Mikidymac suggested a place on line that has good aftermarket regulators but I can't find the thread. Anyone know a place to get reliable regulators?

Had the skis in the water for the first time in a year a couple weeks ago just to load them on the trailer and bring them home from the lakehouse for maintenance, They have not received much attention in a couple years. The '96 ran pretty well. The '97 would not go over idle speed.

 

[mikidymac]

I just buy the cheap ones from ebay for about $20 just make sure they ship from USA.

 

[Ckrawiec]

Testing Rectifier/Regulator in '96 GSX and '97 GSX

On the '97 I get -15 to -20 volts between red wire from regulator to battery neg. when revving I know anything over 15 is bad but why is the voltage negative? (No I didn't have the meter wires reversed ) Is this just a bad regulator or indicative of something more? Swapped yellow wires from the stator wouldn't cause negative voltage would it?

Resistance between all 3 yellow wires from the stator is .6 ohms
Yellow wires to ground have infinite resistance
I didn't measure AC voltage from stator.

On the '96 I get between 12-17 V DC across the battery when revving so I need a new regulator there too. Resistance between yellow wires is also .6 ohms on this ski.

I think Mikidymac suggested a place on line that has good aftermarket regulators but I can't find the thread. Anyone know a place to get reliable regulators?

Had the skis in the water for the first time in a year a couple weeks ago just to load them on the trailer and bring them home from the lakehouse for maintenance, They have not received much attention in a couple years. The '96 ran pretty well. The '97 would not go over idle speed.

See attached......your stators appear to be fine...RR's are a PITA sometimes....I'm still searching the holy grail RR myself.....

 

[Ckrawiec]

Testing Rectifier/Regulator in '96 GSX and '97 GSX

On the '97 I get -15 to -20 volts between red wire from regulator to battery neg. when revving I know anything over 15 is bad but why is the voltage negative? (No I didn't have the meter wires reversed ) Is this just a bad regulator or indicative of something more? Swapped yellow wires from the stator wouldn't cause negative voltage would it?

Resistance between all 3 yellow wires from the stator is .6 ohms
Yellow wires to ground have infinite resistance
I didn't measure AC voltage from stator.

On the '96 I get between 12-17 V DC across the battery when revving so I need a new regulator there too. Resistance between yellow wires is also .6 ohms on this ski.

I think Mikidymac suggested a place on line that has good aftermarket regulators but I can't find the thread. Anyone know a place to get reliable regulators?

Had the skis in the water for the first time in a year a couple weeks ago just to load them on the trailer and bring them home from the lakehouse for maintenance, They have not received much attention in a couple years. The '96 ran pretty well. The '97 would not go over idle speed.

 

[bigJake]

thanks. on the 96 measuring voltage across the battery at idle the voltage is all over the place from 5 to 17. Waiting for delivery of new rectifiers for both

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Is the battery connected during this test? You cannot have 5 to 17 volts at the battery else a fuse would blow or the battery is toast, or your voltmeter is flaky.

If not connected to a battery that's in good condition and while running, there's no accurate way to know or measure the real output voltage of the regulator. This is not a reliable method b/c the characteristics of your particular voltmeter or bad battery become the most part of the transfer function, which isn't representative of how the circuit will function under normal conditions.

 

[Ckrawiec]

thanks. on the 96 measuring voltage across the battery at idle the voltage is all over the place from 5 to 17. Waiting for delivery of new rectifiers for both

Definately sounds like the RR(s) is flaky....a running ski (observed at the battery) should see a steady diet of greater than 12VDC (up to 14.4VDC thereabouts, possibly a little higher if manual revving is involved perhaps), BUT I would think that the voltage shouldn't be dropping below 12 VDC+ as the battery isn't really doing anything once the ski starts and gave its energy burst to kick the starter over. The RR's job is to keep voltage on the Red/purple wire attached to the solenoid post attached directly to the battery (I believe that to be correct and how the ski helps to maintain the battery voltage for the next start sequence).

Of course, the RR is attached to the ECM through the RED wire coming out of the RR itself so I could see where the ECM might not also be behaving properly either (potentially???).....

 

[Ckrawiec]

Is the battery connected during this test? You cannot have 5 to 17 volts at the battery else a fuse would blow or the battery is toast, or your voltmeter is flaky.

If not connected to a battery that's in good condition and while running, there's no accurate way to know or measure the real output voltage of the regulator. This is not a reliable method b/c the characteristics of your particular voltmeter or bad battery become the most part of the transfer function, which isn't representative of how the circuit will function under normal conditions.

I am NOT an electrician by any means, BUT I don't believe that the fuse won't blow until the AMPERAGE rating of the fuse is met/exceeded. My GTX has a 15 amp fuse in the circuit from the RR to the solenoid post.....17 VDC won't blow that fuse at low amps (although I don't know what the amp rating output of a RR actually is supposed to be - ANYONE know????) If SeaDoo put a 15 amp fuse there for circuit protection...I assume a rating of less than 15 amps is supposed to be coming back to the battery if the system is operating properly - correct?

 

[bigJake]

Yes the battery isconnected. To clarify i do not get a steady voltage reading at the battery the numbers are rapidly jumping all over the place. I did the initial readings at the regulator with the red wire dis connected and got negative voltage readings coming from the regulator with the red wire disconnected?? Didn't know if there was actually negative voltage going to battery if that would cause the crazy readings at the battery. Also with red wire from regulator disconnected continuity on red wires and ground studs on regulator back to the battery tested perfect. 0 resistance on wires and exact battery voltage on red wire so all wires and grounds appear to be fine.ohm and acc voltage test s on yellow wires from stator are good so looks like regulator to me. I'm just confused why I'm seeing negative voltage readings. Also im test ing both skis and doing same tests don't see negative voltage on other ski. I'm only seeing 5 volts from that regulator

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I am NOT an electrician by any means, BUT I don't believe that the fuse won't blow until the AMPERAGE rating of the fuse is met/exceeded. My GTX has a 15 amp fuse in the circuit from the RR to the solenoid post.....17 VDC won't blow that fuse at low amps (although I don't know what the amp rating output of a RR actually is supposed to be - ANYONE know????) If SeaDoo put a 15 amp fuse there for circuit protection...I assume a rating of less than 15 amps is supposed to be coming back to the battery if the system is operating properly - correct?

If the battery voltage is 11V with 200A of load from a starter, this amount of current would be double at least, to force a voltage of 5V at the battery, your 15A fuse would be toast long before the battery voltage drops to 5V.

Therefore, either his meter is flakey, or there's something seriously wrong with the battery. My suspicion is either he's not reading battery voltage (something besides the battery itself) or his meter is fubar.

The other possibility is his regulator is passing AC to the battery, not DC, and this interrupts the voltmeter from providing meaningful data.

I've tested a couple of cheapo volunteers from HF I keep around in various places and on AC scale reading a DC source(a battery), they give a completely false reading. This is another example of an inferior test tool, a good reason to suspect your test equipment can malfunction and send you chasing your tail.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Yes the battery isconnected. To clarify i do not get a steady voltage reading at the battery the numbers are rapidly jumping all over the place. I did the initial readings at the regulator with the red wire dis connected and got negative voltage readings coming from the regulator with the red wire disconnected?? Didn't know if there was actually negative voltage going to battery if that would cause the crazy readings at the battery. Also with red wire from regulator disconnected continuity on red wires and ground studs on regulator back to the battery tested perfect. 0 resistance on wires and exact battery voltage on red wire so all wires and grounds appear to be fine.ohm and acc voltage test s on yellow wires from stator are good so looks like regulator to me. I'm just confused why I'm seeing negative voltage readings. Also im test ing both skis and doing same tests don't see negative voltage on other ski. I'm only seeing 5 volts from that regulator

So at one end of the wire, the voltage measured is not the same as measured at the other end of the wire, if I understand correctly. In any case, reading the red wire while disconnected and engine running tells you nothing.

 

[Ckrawiec]

If the battery voltage is 11V with 200A of load from a starter, this amount of current would be double at least, to force a voltage of 5V at the battery, your 15A fuse would be toast long before the battery voltage drops to 5V.

Therefore, either his meter is flakey, or there's something seriously wrong with the battery. My suspicion is either he's not reading battery voltage (something besides the battery itself) or his meter is fubar.

Yes indeed, all fair possibilities.....I just did a little reading up on jet ski batteries myself and it appears that 240CCA to 270 CCA batteries are the minimum. Thoughts on wet cell or sealed batteries preferred?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Sealed batteries are my preference for jet skis, the almost negligible price differential makes good sense with the small batteries IMO.

 

[mikidymac]

The Yuasa YTX20HL-BS sealed maintenance free batteries have 310 CCA and are only $85 with Amazon Prime.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I am NOT an electrician by any means, BUT I don't believe that the fuse won't blow until the AMPERAGE rating of the fuse is met/exceeded. My GTX has a 15 amp fuse in the circuit from the RR to the solenoid post.....17 VDC won't blow that fuse at low amps (although I don't know what the amp rating output of a RR actually is supposed to be - ANYONE know????) If SeaDoo put a 15 amp fuse there for circuit protection...I assume a rating of less than 15 amps is supposed to be coming back to the battery if the system is operating properly - correct?

Max power output of the charging system is specified in the seafood shop manuals, the carbed 951 for instance is 200W I believe. You can use W=A*V if you want to calculate either voltage or current. (A=W/V, etc.)

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Seafood, Lol @ spell check

 

[bigJake]

So at one end of the wire, the voltage measured is not the same as measured at the other end of the wire, if I understand correctly. In any case, reading the red wire while disconnected and engine running tells you nothing.

OK I guess i wasn't clear I'll summarize again:

With red wire disconnected at the regulator and ski NOT running - obviously no voltage on the red wire coming out of the regulator. I was saying the red wire that runs to the back of the ski (that the red wire from the regulator plugs into) has exact battery voltage on it as would be expected and I get 0 resistance on that wire back to the pos post on the battery and 0 resistance from the black ground studs in the front ebox back to the Neg post on the battery, I was ruling out any bad connections/corrosion of the wiring.

With the ski Running and the red wire disconnected I measure -15 to -20 V on the red wire from the regulator this is where I'm confused by the negative voltage. Over 15 V indicates bad regulator.

With the ski running at idle and red wire connected, if I measure voltage across the battery, that is where the meter just goes crazy. That is where I was wondering if the regulator was truly putting negartive voltage to the battery (which I would think would drain the battery?) that might be causing the havoc on trying to read voltage on the battery.

Ski running and yellow wires disconnected, from the stator I think I got 45 V AC across yellow wires as expected. ski not running 0.6 ohm across yellow wires and all yellow wires are Open to ground as expected.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Measuring while running with red wire of regulator disconnected tells you nothing about the regulator. It must be connected to a known good battery for a valid test.

If your regulator is passing AC, it can cause the DVM reading to make no sense. The reason is, the DVM is on DC scale and there's DC at the battery terminals yes, but there's also an AC component on top of the DC due to the regulator is passing AC to the battery. I can also take a pure DC measurement with a junk meter (I have several $2 HF junk DVM's) set on AC scale and see the DVM report some AC voltage which isn't present. Also, these cheap HF DVM's are totally useless aaround an outboard due to the flywheel magnets flying around and maybe the ignition system noise, all I can say for sure is while these junk meters are near an running outboard they go haywire.

But the regulator is new and assumed good? The original regulator, what was the symptom, was the same voltmeter reporting the same odd values?

What made you believe the previous regulator was malfunctioning, and not the voltmeter?

Voltmeters can give totally funky numbers too just by having some magnets nearby flying around, that is, cheap ones are generally more susceptible to noise due to lack of shielding.

It's difficult to nail what's really going on and how we got here, all I can say with certainty is the regulator output measurement will not be valid unless it's connected to the battery while running.

If you were using a trusty, well built voltmeter, I'd say the regulator is malfunctioning. But not b/c of the voltage measured while disconnected from the battery. I often wonder if voltmeters picking up noise doesn't cause all kinds of confusion. And, I suspect if you were to meausre some of these voltages using a good oscilloscope, you might be surprised at the amplitude of noise you observe.

After all that, and assuming your voltmeter is trustworthy, the regulator must be defective.

 

[bigJake]

OK i put an overnight charge on both batteries with my Optimate IV charger and redid the tests WITH the red wire from the regulator connected to the wire going to the rear e-box/battery. Both charged batteries are reading a little low after charging, probably due to damage from bad regulators(?) and they are 3 years old but they still start the skis. These are sealed glass mat batteries.

No I have not put in new rectifiers. These are the originals. I ordered new ones a couple days ago.

My test results are attached.


Max voltage on the '96 battery was 13.5 which is too low and the voltage on the '97 battery was 16.53 which is too high so I have the same assumption that I started out with that both regulators need to be replaced.

Are the 28 VAC and 35 VAC too high too meaning that the rectifier component is bad too? I'm assuming, as Sportster suggested that the excess AC voltage is what was causing the DC reading on the Woods meter to jump around?

The new regulator for the '97 arrived yesterday. I'm going to stick that in the ski and redo the tests.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Looks to me like you have two bad regulators and two bad batteries. A bad or discharged battery can damage the regulator. Charge the battery and let rest overnight, voltage next day must be at least 12.5v (12.5v is 80% charge of new good battery). No need to proceed if battery measures less than 12.5v, except repeat charge and overnight rest voltage check. The excess voltage is defective regulator and the wild voltage is defective regulator.

The woods voltmeter is a quality voltmeter I believe, they have a good reputation.

 

[bigJake]

I just put a new rectifier in the '97. Voltage is a constant 14.43 at idle or revved. Meter shows 31 VAC at the battery at idle. The new rectifier was pretty hot to the touch after ski was running for 2 min to do the test. That doesn't seem normal does it? I thought maybe a bad ground, but I get 0 resistance if i back probe the ground wire at the coupler and measure back to the neg post on the battery.

I'll try another charge on the batteries and get them load tested. Still waiting delivery of the new rectifier for the '96.

 

[GGuillot]

Max voltage on the '96 battery was 13.5 which is too low and the voltage on the '97 battery was 16.53 which is too high so I have the same assumption that I started out with that both regulators need to be replaced.

I have a 96' GSX, I get 13.5 volts at idle (3K on the trailer) so what's the issue with that ski? Non running voltage is 12.5 volts.

 

[GGuillot]

Meter shows 31 VAC at the battery at idle.

Why are you checking at the battery on the meter's AC selection? Try DC...

 

[bigJake]

Why are you checking at the battery on the meter's AC selection? Try DC...

because if the rectifier is not working properly it will pass excessive A/C voltage to the battery but I don't remember what is considered excessive. I did check DC. With the new regulator I am getting 14.42 VDC. With the old regulator I was gettting 16.8. This ski would not run over idle speed.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I just put a new rectifier in the '97. Voltage is a constant 14.43 at idle or revved. Meter shows 31 VAC at the battery at idle. The new rectifier was pretty hot to the touch after ski was running for 2 min to do the test. That doesn't seem normal does it? I thought maybe a bad ground, but I get 0 resistance if i back pin the ground wire at the coupler and measure back to the neg post on the battery.

I'll try another charge on the batteries and get them load tested. Still waiting delivery of the new rectifier for the '96.

If we charge a battery, let it rest overnight and it measures less than 12.5v, we declare it defective. A good battery will usually be more than 12.5v for this test. Real battery pros have a load tester that will flesh out a bad battery even if it's not completely charged, Wal-mart uses this kind of tester. It measures the CCA and impedance. Midtronics makes these testers.