GTX 155 sharper steering??

[dws6]

Hey guys,
New to the forum, I just bought two ski's. One of which is a 2009 GTX 155 with 9hrs on it. On first ride I noticed it does not have the ability to turn sharp enough to spin the ski out at high speed (or any speed for that matter). even my old 96GTX with 110hp could spin the ski. what I mean buy spin the ski is 35+ mph, then full steering and full throttle which results in a stationary 180. This 09 just carves a nice sweeping turn. Any suggestions on how to get more out of it? The 2011 RXT-X has no problem doing it either. The 155 is my wife's ski and she doesn't care, but I do, so I want to see what I can do to get a little more fun out of it. From what I can tell, the nozzle does turn lock to lock so I don't think the steering is limited from what the factory designed it for.

Thanks in advance,

 

[Coastiejoe]

The hull is a different design as compared to the other skis you mentioned. I own the 2010 version. If you have the VTS all the way down you can get more performance in regards to performance type handling.

For speed and a better ride you will want to the VTS in the middle range or higher.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[dws6]

No VTS. In a way I want worse handling. I want it to break traction so it can spin around. Is this a limitation due to power or steering? I don't think it's power when my old 96 with 110hp could do it.

 

[Coastiejoe]

The 155 engine in the larger heavier hulls acts more like a Caddy as compared to a Porsche.

The 155 engine is VERY reliable and can get 400 hours on it, but it is not like your RXT's by design.

Ride plates and intake grates can affect ride and handling as well.

If you are finding it is "Bow heavy" you could add a wedge which will get more of the ski out of the water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[mattydipps]

even my 215 gtx has a tough time spinning out... your dealing with a heavy hull with a non high performance engine.. JOE (hehe) said above the gtx is more for the comfort of riding and more of a caddy with the 155 in it.. adding a wedge will bring the nose up and get the rear to kick out a bit.. your 260 has more then enough power to kick out the rear of a pontoon boat..

 

[dws6]

what I found interesting though is the 96 800cc was 110 hp and 575lbs where this 09 is 155hp and 795lbs. The power to weight ratio is actually a bit better on the 4-tec. That's why I didn't think it was power related. But I guess its just weight against physics and power is just a small part of it.

I have been out of the hobby since 2000 so can I ask a couple dumb questions?

1. what do you mean by "not like the RXT-X by design? Are these 260 SC motors not reliable? I know the super charger has more maintenance intervals but will it be unreliable?

2. can you point me in the right direction on the ride plate and intake grate ups and downs?

3. what is a wedge? obviously it has something to do with adding fixed trim to the boat. What are some of the places you guys use for parts. I didn't notice a sponsor section, or maybe I missed it????

 

[mattydipps]

what I found interesting though is the 96 800cc was 110 hp and 575lbs where this 09 is 155hp and 795lbs. The power to weight ratio is actually a bit better on the 4-tec. That's why I didn't think it was power related. But I guess its just weight against physics and power is just a small part of it.

I have been out of the hobby since 2000 so can I ask a couple dumb questions?

1. what do you mean by "not like the RXT-X by design? Are these 260 SC motors not reliable? I know the super charger has more maintenance intervals but will it be unreliable?

2. can you point me in the right direction on the ride plate and intake grate ups and downs?

3. what is a wedge? obviously it has something to do with adding fixed trim to the boat. What are some of the places you guys use for parts. I didn't notice a sponsor section, or maybe I missed it????

to answer your questions in a nut shell..

its a little bit different from the hulls from years past.. your dealing with a wider hull which has evolved into a hull which will cut though waves better and give a much smoother ride. the power from the 155 isnt enough to send this thing into a race and win. hense the reason for the supercharged skis.

1. the supercharged engines need to be rebuilt every 2 years or 100 hours.. which ever is sooner..the supercharged motors are built for one thing... speed.. reliability is there but with the cost of a big blown motor comes the high cost of maintenance.. they are as reliable as the operator.. meaning if you keep up with your plug changes, your oil changes and most importantly the supercharger maintenance.. then you will be.

2. because we are using a closed loop system.. there really are not any choices for a ride plate.. unless you convert to open loop.. jims ride plates are probably the best ones out there.. but in reality your better off truing the hull and sticking with the closed loop.. too many hassles in going over to open loop.. the intake grate is a nice option for out of the hole performance but not really any top end gain.. in reality you may loose some top end to gain a little in the bottom. i run a riva top loader grate and have nothing but good things to say about it.

3. yes a wedge is a fixed trim that goes right behind the nozzle.. a 2 degree wedge will lift the front of the ski more creating less friction which will equate to more speed.. and sometimes a nice rooster tail if you have a trim.. but i highly recommend not stacking any sort of wedge.. itll be a funny show but will do more damage then its worth.

pwcmuscle.com is the forums online store and if you mention your a member here you get a discount.

 

[sircolby45]

I can get my Wake 155 to spin out no problem. It is all in the technique. The key is to actually turn the opposite direction and then quickly whip it in the other direction. I can bust 180s+ all day doing that.

 

[Vidgren]

Same here. Turn sharp right then Turn sharp left. Will do a 180.

 

[Michael211_2000]

1. the supercharged engines need to be rebuilt every 2 years or 100 hours.. which ever is sooner

Not quite right that... pull and rebuild (or have rebuilt) the SC every 100 hours of operation, assuming you don't have ceramic slip washers (in which case pull the SC and replace the ceramic slip washers with steel upgrades immediately!). There is no particular number of years, the bearings don't grow-old they only wear when it's operating; my RXT is 7 years old but only has 86 hours on it to date and runs just fine I might be ready to rebuild my SC this next winter if I can get up to the lake more often than I have so far this summer.

For those with the newest SC's rated at 200 hours of operation.... well, the jury is still out on them I've read. Since they're relatively new, you should have plenty of time before you hit even 100 hrs but as you approach 100 hrs of operation with them I'd be checking the forums to see if anybody's been having failures in the 100-200 hr operation range and then decide for yourself if you want to go that additional 100 hrs or not. SeaDoo has made mistakes before (ie. ceramic slip washers that cracked and fell apart inside the engines, hollow sodium filled exhaust valve stems that snap off inside the cylinders weaking havoc, etc.)... I take any OEM recomendations as just that and read the forums alot to see what other's real world experience is.

Regards!

- Michael

 

[mattydipps]

I've always followed what a few other people have told me. They claim after two years the ceramic cages could become brittle and after spinning at such a high speed there's a chance it could fall apart.. After a few emails with Jerry he basically told me something similar so I've always kinda lived with that motto lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Michael211_2000]

I've read this forum (and the GH forum) on 4TEC PWC's for the past 3 years straight, nobody has ever posted anything regarding a 2 year SC rebuild interval until your posting here Matty. And I'm pretty sure there are no "ceramic cages", the bearings and bearing cages are steel unless an owner chooses to have them replaced with cermic bearings and then they still have steel cages what'd be the point of using brittle expensive ceramic material to make a bearing cage? It just doesn't make sense.

I make no claim of being an expert where these superchargers are concerned, but I'm well read on them at this point and I think you may have misunderstood something. Of course, if you want to have yours rebuilt ever 2 years and can afford it then it sure won't hurt anything, but I only put like 10-11 hours max a year on my RXT since I bought it used in 2010 (it had 69 hours on it then, and I just turned it to 87 hours this afternoon... I hope to be close enough to 100 to rebuild the SC this winter finally).

It also matters what oil you use in your engine, some oils are too slick and the SC washers can't grip enough and spin constantly burning them up prematurely for instance. Some types of oil will degrade and weaken ceramic slip washers (and ceramic bearings, if you upgraded to them). These are the things I've read repeatedly in the forums, and believe.

- Michael

 

[Coastiejoe]

I have also read the 2-year thing as well...

Going to do some digging now...

 

[dws6]

Michael 2011,

so my RXT-X is a 2011 with 32hrs on it. Would this be a 200hr or 100hr rebuild? I am told this has the steel washers, is this true? Im not sure what yr they started changing them at BRP.

What oil do you recommend?

What is the typical price for rebuilding the SC's?

Does it NEED to be done by the dealer? I am mechanically inclined but wondering if there are special tools required.

 

[dws6]

I have also read the 2-year thing as well...

Going to do some digging now...

yeah that 2yr thing just doesn't make any sense to me.
]

 

[mattydipps]

When I first got my ski,l in march it had 7 hours on an 06 and a bunch of people recommended a full rebuild not just a washer swap because of over time the ceramic "could" become brittle and fail.. I'm no where near an expert on superchargers so my literature may be a little off.. But once I get off work I will check and see exactly what wa said but for me.. It was better safe then sorry, the time isn't an issue for me because I hit 100 hours in a season


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Coastiejoe]

When I first got my ski,l in march it had 7 hours on an 06 and a bunch of people recommended a full rebuild not just a washer swap because of over time the ceramic "could" become brittle and fail.. I'm no where near an expert on superchargers so my literature may be a little off.. But once I get off work I will check and see exactly what wa said but for me.. It was better safe then sorry, the time isn't an issue for me because I hit 100 hours in a season


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

The ceramic washers are a known issue, they do fail and they do destroy you engine. If you have ceramic washers, no matter the hour or the years, they need changed out.

08 was the last year to have them. But,,, some 09s seems to get a few snuck into them. I assume new old stock.

 

[KK40384]

yeah that 2yr thing just doesn't make any sense to me.
]

It will when you have a 5 year old supercharger with 60hrs and the bearings come apart due to brittle cages and find their way in your motor causing catastrophic damage.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Matty, if you can go back and see what exactly was said to you (or you'd read) about your supercharger.... it sounds like they were talking about the OEM ceramic slip washers though, which were prone to cracking and breaking apart falling down inside your engine case blocking oil passages and generally destroying engines if not cleaned out promptly (the engines would continue to run without the supercharger spinning, just with less power... while the washer pieces would be down in the engine case wreaking havoc).

But the slip washers were the only OEM ceramic parts in the superchargers as far as I know. And it wasn't 2 years, it was IMMEDIATELY get those ceramic slip washers replaced and unless it was nearing 100 hrs there was no reason to totally rebuild the SC... however when I asked a dealership, they said they would not replace just the ceramic washers even if I paid them for it they would ONLY do a full rebuild (~$750!). I bought a steel washer upgrade kit and did the washer swap myself at 69 hours (what mine had on it when I bought it used; the cermic washers were intact but I tossed them in favor of steel upgrades). I'm up to 87 hours as of Sunday afternoon and the SC is running strong still... I hope to be at the 100 hr point by the time I winterize it this Fall so I can pull the SC out and send it to Jerry at GH for a full rebuild finally.

There's no 2 year maintenance on the SC's, there's no 5 year maintenance on the SC's KK, they don't "expire" over time they only wear when the engine is running. That said, if it's been sitting for years "sleeping" and you bought it, you might want to have the SC rebuilt just because the oil seal may well have dry-rotted from sitting for so long.. that's all I can think of though. Otherwise it's replace the OEM ceramic washers with steel washers immediately (if it was so equipped or you don't know), then rebuild every 100 hrs of operation (unless you have a 2 year rated SC in which case you might want to revisit the rebuild interval issue when you approach 100 hrs of operation and see how they're holding up, just because).

Ceramic bearings weren't OEM in the superchargers, they're something you have to have installed yourself and may have different issues I don't know about but OEM is steel bearings and bearing cages as far as I know. Even ceramic bearings utilize steel bearing cages though, you wouldn't want the cage to be made of ceramic materials that would make no sense at all to me.

- Michael

 

[mattydipps]

here is an exact quote from jerry...

"Like mentioned before you need to get the ceramic washers out of that supercharger. I recommend a full rebuild though as the bearing cages get brittle over time and will break. Your bearing cages are 6+ years old now. Sea Doo's recommendation on rebuild interval with their new kits is 200hrs or every 2 years because of this.

When a bearing fails your supercharger is turned to scrap and it can cause quite a mess in the engine.

Good luck and enjoy the ski!

Jerry"

so i was a little confused on the cages (im still learning about these motors)... but according to jerry the cages become brittle and the supercharger needs to be rebuilt every 200 ( i, like most still plan on rebuilding after 100) hours or 2 years which ever comes first.

 

[KK40384]

There's no 2 year maintenance on the SC's, there's no 5 year maintenance on the SC's KK, they don't "expire" over time they only wear when the engine is running. That said, if it's been sitting for years "sleeping" and you bought it, you might want to have the SC rebuilt just because the oil seal may well have dry-rotted from sitting for so long.. that's all I can think of though. Otherwise it's replace the OEM ceramic washers with steel washers immediately (if it was so equipped or you don't know), then rebuild every 100 hrs of operation (unless you have a 2 year rated SC in which case you might want to revisit the rebuild interval issue when you approach 100 hrs of operation and see how they're holding up, just because).


- Michael

I never said there was a 5 year interval. I was simply stating that if you HAVE a sc that is below the 100hr rebuild mark over a 5 year period, that doesn't make the supercharger safe anymore. I had this talk with my local dealer when I had him rebuild the SC and I was told to rebuild every 200 hrs or 2 years. I never understood why they recommend 200 hr intervals when the bearing cages were never upgraded and deteriorated with time (2 years give or take according to the dealer). If personally rather spend $400 for a rebuild every 2 years than replace a $4500 motor. Just my $.02. You wanna run your sc for more time that's your choice.

 

[Michael211_2000]

Ok... interesting. Jerry didn't say nor imply that the bearing cages were ceramic, only that the OEM ceramic washers needed to be replaced ASAP (everybody agrees on that point I'm sure!). I cannot fathom why he would think that the bearing cages (which I believe are steel in most every application) would get brittle that loses me without further explanation. The cage doesn't even hold the bearing together once it's in it's race (the steel ring that most conical bearings sit in), it's mainly to keep the bearing balls from falling apart when you handle the bearing outside of it's steel race... once installed the cage doesn't serve any particular purpose it doesn't wear and if it's made of steel (and I believe they are) then there's no reason it should become brittle with age.

There is basically no way to put 200 (or even 100) hours on an PWC engine in less than 2 years... unless you literally take it for a spin 365+ days a year! This would make the 200 hrs rebuild interval irrelevant as everybody would be rebuilding their SC's every 2 years with only maybe 20 hours or so on them (realistically speaking)... this makes no sense to me. However, 200 hrs or 2 years is the recommendation on the "new" kits and most of us probably don't have those new parts in our SC's (at least not yet) so perhaps there is some problem with the "new" kit parts supplied that Jerry is seeing.... IDK. I would want more clarification on this.

How long have you had your '06 GTX Matty? Just curious.... I bought my RXT in the Fall of 2010 and have been reading and learning ever since. I've held most of my engine's pieces in my hands (pistons, rings, rod bearings etc.), including my supercharger when I changed out those nasty ceramic slip washers. The only bearing on the SC shaft where it goes into the engine case are needle bearings and they are steel and cage-less (which makes them tonnes of fun to keep track of!). The other SC bearings are inside the SC itself and don't go into your engine case when the SC is installed.... you may have noticed this if you pulled and re-installed it yourself when you sent it to Jerry.

Anyhows, this is interesting reading though I do not know why Jerry (or SeaDoo) would be recommending such a short timespan between rebuilds but so many more available operating hours on the "new" kits. I am perplexed.

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

I never said there was a 5 year interval. I was simply stating that if you HAVE a sc that is below the 100hr rebuild mark over a 5 year period, that doesn't make the supercharger safe anymore.

So.... you didn't just say 5 years, but you're saying if it's older then 5 years it should be rebuilt? Why not 4 years, or 3 years, or hey how about 2 years now? LOL!

Sorry just picking, but something doesn't make sense about this new 200 hrs or 2 years rebuild interval we're suddenly discussing here (this 2 year number has never been posted, in this forum at least, before)... there's just no way the vast majority of us could possibly get even 100 hrs of operation in 2 years, much less 200 hrs. Think about it! Plus, steel bearing cages don't get brittle with age, at least not in single digits worth of years maybe 20 or 30 years they might get brittle but 2 years or 5 years... I'm not buying it.

So yes, I will run my supercharger for 100 hrs before getting it rebuilt... might get to that point before the end of this summer, time and weather permitting. IDK. No, I'm not going to rush out and yank the SC out of my RXT and mail it to Jerry this evening... it will be just fine till 100 hrs is reached, probably would be just fine for a little over that but 100 hrs is a nice even number IMHO.

- Michael

 

[KK40384]

I have to agree that the 2 year life span seems a little ridiculous but I'm not about to test it. When the dealer told me that I kind of just dismissed it since it wouldn't be a big deal to me. I usually ride around 35-45hrs a year depending on weather (this year will be less for sure). I usually do it every 2 seasons anyway because I don't wanna be doing it mid season and get stuck out of commission mid summer when the weather is nicest.

I think most issues I've seen when it comes to age is when you have a ski that was built in 05 and only has 35 hrs total runtime since new. That means you now have 8 years and only 35hrs so in theory you'll probably never keep it long enough to ever reach 100hrs and have to rebuild. I've seen quite a few threads on pre-100hr failures on older (03-04) 4 tecs on here recently.

And yes the ceramic washers must go ASAP. 1hr on those is too much in my book. Mine gave out at 27hrs. Dealer reassured me I had steel washers in my 08 and I never checked. 27hrs later he found out he was wrong and had to warranty a huge mess.

 

[mattydipps]

i bought my ski in feburary of this year with 6 hours on it.. after reading the whole thing about cages breaking and ceramic washers i sent the SC out for a rebuild.. i figured it was better safe then sorry.. i got it for a steal anyway so 400 bucks didnt break the bank.. i would consider this year a "light" year of use for me (it didnt get hot until mid june. early july this year).. last summer.. (in early may we were around 70 degrees where i live) i put about 120 hours on my old ski.. this year ive only put around 35 hours on it with work and this crappy weather we have had. im on vacation after wednesday so i hope to be out and put another 15-20 hours on the ski..

ive heard stories from my buddy.. with out nailing the throttle or toping the ski out.. (really babying the ski) he put 250 hours inbetween rebuilds.. i think it really depends on the rider.