Engine alignmenet

[jimmaki]

Unless the laser was mounted in such a way that it was proven or known to be square to the engine, it would not help.

In theory, you are looking to get the laser on a DOT on the other end. Getting the dot of the laser in place would be easy as you would learn or tilt the engine as needed. But in reality, you could be off by many inches as it is like a gun. I can be square to the target or off by 10 feet to the left and still hit the bulls eye...

Right, that's why I suggested to Soccerdad to face off an impeller tool square to the splines and insert it into the PTO. Then polish the face enough to reflect a laser dot. When the laser beam is emitted from the center of the impeller shaft using another impeller tool bored to hold the laser pointer, when it reflects back to the center of the emitted beam (meaning it disappears), since the reflective surface is square to the motor, viola, you should be dead nuts aligned.

I've never seen in person or used an impeller tool, but I'm assuming it fits nice and snug in the impeller shaft splines as well as the PTO given its real job is to act like a wrench. If it's a sloppy fit like the convex driveshaft splines, then all bets are off.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Right, that's why I suggested to Soccerdad to face off an impeller tool square to the splines and insert it into the PTO. Then polish the face enough to reflect a laser dot. When the laser beam is emitted from the center of the impeller shaft using another impeller tool bored to hold the laser pointer, when it reflects back to the center of the emitted beam (meaning it disappears), since the reflective surface is square to the motor, viola, you should be dead nuts aligned.

I've never seen in person or used an impeller tool, but I'm assuming it fits nice and snug in the impeller shaft splines as well as the PTO given its real job is to act like a wrench. If it's a sloppy fit like the convex driveshaft splines, then all bets are off.

Or,,,
Just rent the tool from me for $70 (which covers the cost of freight to you) and be done.. LOL

 

[soccerdad]

View attachment 31273View attachment 31270View attachment 31271View attachment 31272I made a tool to aline mine, 1995 xp 717. I had a spare pump i removed the impeller, shaft and seal from. Then i bought some 7/8 to 3/4 brass bushings to slip in the pumps bearings to adapt it to 3/4 inch and to protect the bearings from the shaft i used. I then bought a straight piece of 3/4 inch steal shaft and had one end turned down on a lathe to fit inside the splines of the pto and used it like the factory/sbt tool to hold one end of the shaft square in the pump and test fit the other end in the pto. (i really had my friend with the lathe turn both ends of the shaft one end just a little bit smaller then the aliment end so i could tell when i was close and i had him use the splines of the impeller as a guide on how to machine the ends of the shaft since it was portable and the splines were the same size as the pto).

That is basically what my idea is. Nice job.

To all... I appreciate all the comments on using the correct tools. I really do. I also appreciate alternate methods of thinking. That is how I am wired and what I do for a living. I like to break things down technically and look at alternate methods. I think everyone learns and gets better with these types of conversations. The SBT tool is nice. It is pricy and I cant make one. But I am sure there are other, potentially better ideas out there. Just know that I am not disrespecting anyone here. You have way more experience with all of this than I do. I think this have been a good discussion and has got some people to think. I may end up just sticking the motor in where I think it is good. Then use some kind of tool to verify. If it is off, I will fix it. You are all correct, I am not that strong of a swimmer to pull the ski, a tube and two girls back to the ramp! :driving:

 

[Blowncat 509]

That is pretty much what I did, grabbed the old pump from the XP, that I had already stripped down except for the bearings. Ordered a 3' long 7/8 drill rod, had my buddy machine one end to fit in the splines, threw an old handlebar grip on the other end, and it seems to work just fine! Checked my gtx with it and it slid right in.

 

[racerxxx]

I'm curious how much was the drill rod?

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[soccerdad]

$27 plus shipping. McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-rods/=xthaym And that is for precision ground. I measured the spline hole and it looks to be 18mm on the ID of the splines. Can get a 3' 18mm drill rod for $20 at McMaster-Carr . Still looking at some stuff.

 

[Blowncat 509]

I'm curious how much was the drill rod?

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I'm a little late on your answer, but yet there it is! McMaster Carr is where I got it from, and yes, it was
$30 something dollars( I can bury purchases like this at work, I'm the shop foreman) so sometimes I can't
Remember what the price was......

 

[racerxxx]

Only reason I asked is, for a guy who didn't have shop access, will spend $30 plus $10 for shipping, plus I'll go light on the shop rate at $80 per hour, plus another $8 for the oil lite bushings. So your at $128 vs, $150 for the sbt tool, provided that shop rate is only $80. I just don't think the savings are worth it unless you have free shop access like some of us do, lol. Guy can also advertise on Craigslist and rent the tool locally for $25 (just get a copy of the license and a $150 deposit) and make money back on it.

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[jimmaki]

Only reason I asked is, for a guy who didn't have shop access, will spend $30 plus $10 for shipping, plus I'll go light on the shop rate at $80 per hour, plus another $8 for the oil lite bushings. So your at $128 vs, $150 for the sbt tool, provided that shop rate is only $80. I just don't think the savings are worth it unless you have free shop access like some of us do, lol. Guy can also advertise on Craigslist and rent the tool locally for $25 (just get a copy of the license and a $150 deposit) and make money back on it.

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Never thought about getting the tool and then renting it out locally. Other than obvious physical damage, how would I check to make sure it's still "calibrated" when it comes back before returning the deposit?

 

[soccerdad]

i just ordered some 18 mm drill rod and a 18 mm delrin sleeve bearing. Total cost ~$35 including shipping 18MM is the ID of the PTO and prop splines. . I will cut it to 21" (length of my drive shaft in the GTX). Then I will cut 3" off that shaft. The short piece will go into the motor PTO, the sleeve will go on that shaft. Then the long shaft goes into the pump and install the pump. Adjust the motor until you get the shaft ends to align using the bushing to slide over the joint as a final check. Tighten down, remove pump and shafts, replace with splined shaft and you are good to go. No machining at all. Just an abrasive cut-off wheel to cut the shaft. So for $35 I should have a system that is as good, or actually better than the SBT. It would be better since it will use the actual mounted pump that will be in the ski as is aligned just like it would be in real running conditions. I will post a full writeup with pix once I get the shafting. Should be tomorrow. Yes I know it is not universal for different shaft lengths and don't know how it would work on the carrier bearing systems, but It should work well for my GTX's and GSX. Not sure the sleeve bushing will even be needed and that would drop the cost to $30 total.


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[racerxxx]

Keep track of your time, include your time you spent researching please.

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[jimmaki]

Looks great ... so did you make two? One for me? Looking forward to pics and results. I agree it's the most accurate since you're using the actual pump, some are shimmed, btw. So if the tolerance between the shaft and splines on both ends is tight enough (or at least as tight as the SBT tool tolerances) ... this could turn out to be a $120 savings with as good or better results. Actually much better since I probably would actually do it, whereas for $150 one shot use, I might possibly just skip that alignment.

 

[Lake Sailor]

Nothing wrong with inventing a better tool, i.e. laser pointer based. Nothing wrong with rolling your own. I promise you if I had a lathe or friends with lathes I'da done the same.

I did rent the SBT tool (no offense Coastie, had to get parts anyway) and I'll say it is a very nice tool, well made, easy to use. Does multiple models. If I'd had someplace to store the damm thing I'da just kept it.

I need to get rid of half the stuff in my garage, I just don't know which half

 

[soccerdad]

Keep track of your time, include your time you spent researching please.

LOL! I am actually saving money working on this project. And not just in the cost of the tool. If I wasn't messing with this, I would be reseaching a new head unit for my sound system in my truck! Now that will cost money... So me not working on that, actually saves money. I live on mcmaster.com, so that entire lookup took me less than 10 minutes. And a quick search on this forum found the shaft diameter needed. Yes, I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, but at the same time I was assembling raves, rebuilding a starter and dropping the motor back into my GTX. If we got paid a normal shop rate for this hobby, including time on the forum, we all could have nice new $15000 skis every year! Maybe three in your case! Kind of the main thing we are all doing with these older skis is trading our labor and time against the cost a new ski. Yes, there is an added bonus of the light weight coolness of an XP or GSX, but many here are in the two stroke skis just because it is an affordable entry point to get to the lake. If it cost me $15K to go to the lake the first time on a pair of skis, I would (could) not have done it.

No, $150 or even $75 to rent one would not kill me. But if I can come up with another option, that works just as well, or perhaps better,that most can make and store easily, then I think the community will benefit from it.

 

[jimmaki]

Well said. The cost of the tool or rental wouldn't kill me either, but I promised my wife we'd park the cars in the garage in this house and I've already had to buy a big shed. Now that it's full of stuff, I'm scared to buy any tools that won't fit in the big roll around toolbox she got me as a present... but I know her motive was to keep the garage uncluttered.

 

[jimmaki]

Or,,,
Just rent the tool from me for $70 (which covers the cost of freight to you) and be done.. LOL

I appreciate the offer Coastiejoe, although I'm still not sure I'll need to yank the whole engine. When I get to crossing that bridge I may give you a holler. Thanks.

 

[6hoppy6]

i just ordered some 18 mm drill rod and a 18 mm delrin sleeve bearing. Total cost ~$35 including shipping 18MM is the ID of the PTO and prop splines. . I will cut it to 21" (length of my drive shaft in the GTX). Then I will cut 3" off that shaft. The short piece will go into the motor PTO, the sleeve will go on that shaft. Then the long shaft goes into the pump and install the pump. Adjust the motor until you get the shaft ends to align using the bushing to slide over the joint as a final check. Tighten down, remove pump and shafts, replace with splined shaft and you are good to go. No machining at all. Just an abrasive cut-off wheel to cut the shaft. So for $35 I should have a system that is as good, or actually better than the SBT. It would be better since it will use the actual mounted pump that will be in the ski as is aligned just like it would be in real running conditions. I will post a full writeup with pix once I get the shafting. Should be tomorrow. Yes I know it is not universal for different shaft lengths and don't know how it would work on the carrier bearing systems, but It should work well for my GTX's and GSX. Not sure the sleeve bushing will even be needed and that would drop the cost to $30 total.


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Good idea, i will watch for the pictures. I think the sleeve bushing was a good move, when you get it all alined not only should the sleeve bushing should slip freely over the shaft ends but it should rotate freely as well to verify no binding. I don't know however how perfect it needs to be, as far as i can tell the factory/sbt tools don't take into account any flex from the hull,pump, and motor mounts when everything is under a load bouncing across the water and not at rest on a trailer.

My homemade aliment tool dose not have perfect accuracy because i just used cheap steel shaft( the straightest one i could find) not drill rod or anything fancy like that, but when i was all done it was 1/8 closer than it was when i started because for some reason their were no shims previous to me.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I got doubts about the laser pointer. It's a very narrow beam and could be spot on, but when the shaft is coming in, it could be too high or too low. The alignment tool will hit the bottom of the PTO hole, even if its center is spot on with the center of the PTO but it's coming up from too low. Same thing can be said for all the other directions. Also, the pumps CAN be shimmed. When I put my alignment tool in without shims, the shaft is off-center of the thru-hull fitting. This would translate to the carbon seal not mating properly and lead to it wearing unevenly. Probably not a big deal in the long run, but I'm a bit ocd about things being straight.

 

[soccerdad]

I finished my tool and it seems to work well. I started a new thread on it. http://www.seadooforum.com/showthre...engine-alignment-tool-DIY&p=475385#post475385 :cheers:

I will finish my other piece on this thread. I installed a different motor in this ski than what came out of it. I did not remove any motor mounts, I just removed the 3 mount screws and pulled it. When I put this one in, I used the marks from the old bolts in the mounts as a guide and sat it in there. It really only wanted to go in one way anyway. When I used this new tool, I was amazed to see that the alignment was almost perfect without any adjustment. I may have got lucky. Real lucky. Or the machined surfaces are pretty close from one ski to the next. I will never know, but at least I did not have to mess with adding or moving shims.