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Do not boost battery while installed sticker

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The sticker on my 97 seadoo GTS says something like DO NOT BOOST BATTERY WHILE INSTALLED.

what exactly do they mean by boost? I'm assuming it doesn't want you to fry anything with too many volts.

I am thinking they mean don't use a battery charger because it charges more than the normal battery voltage?

Is it also harmful to for example say one ski had dead battery. I would think it would be fine to connect the dead battery to another car or jetski battery that's not currently running so battery voltage would still be like 12.6 to jump it with.

What would be okay vs not okay to jump these things?
 
I jumped a Seadoo XP a few times. It worked fine afterwards. I did eventually get a new battery though! It was sort of an experiment though because it was a ski we got for $100
 
People jump them all the time and some never have an issue,, Sadly, there is no real rhyme or reason to to it. It only takes once to cost you several hundreds of dollars to replace the MPEM.

In the end, it may never be an issue, but it really is not worth the risk IMO.
 
I got my Seadoos used and both batteries are completely dead, so when I need to turn the engine over, I pull a battery out of my Miata. But even then, the engine turns over very weak, and sometimes not at all.

So I set-up this Schumacher battery charger on the lowest, 2 amp, "trickle" setting and that allows my Miata battery to turn over the Seadoo engine. This makes me very nervous.

Does this sound like a problem with my starter? Voltage regulator? The battery works fine on the (4 cylinder) Miata.
 
I got my Seadoos used and both batteries are completely dead, so when I need to turn the engine over, I pull a battery out of my Miata. But even then, the engine turns over very weak, and sometimes not at all.

So I set-up this Schumacher battery charger on the lowest, 2 amp, "trickle" setting and that allows my Miata battery to turn over the Seadoo engine. This makes me very nervous.

Does this sound like a problem with my starter? Voltage regulator? The battery works fine on the (4 cylinder) Miata.

Get a meter and put the terminals on the hot post of the starter and ground the other lead on the body of the starter. Then have someone crank the engine. This will basically load test the battery as well as let us know if you have cable or connection issues. Once you post the number, we can help you better..
 
Yes you CAN jump them but it's risky. It's not supposed to be but it is. Here's why:

Too much voltage will trigger the avalanche surge diode inside the MPEM, it's not supposed to happen within reasonable voltages but anything greater than 14V is getting dangerous. Once the diode avalanches it usually shorts and the 5A fuse blows, a shorted diode renders the MPEM useless.

300A or 1 bazillion amps doesn't matter, my boat has a much more powerful, larger battery than a ski would have, it's the voltage that causes the diode to avalanche. Once that surge protection diode develops a short it's done.
 

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Too much voltage will trigger the avalanche surge diode inside the MPEM, it's not supposed to happen within reasonable voltages but anything greater than 14V is getting dangerous. Once the diode avalanches it usually shorts and the 5A fuse blows, a shorted diode renders the MPEM useless.

300A or 1 bazillion amps doesn't matter, my boat has a much more powerful, larger battery than a ski would have, it's the voltage that causes the diode to avalanche. Once that surge protection diode develops a short it's done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_breakdown

Avalanche breakdown is a phenomenon that can occur in both insulating and semiconducting materials. It is a form of electric current multiplication that can allow very large currents within materials which are otherwise good insulators. It is a type of electron avalanche. The avalanche process occurs when carriers in the transition region are accelerated by the electric field to energies sufficient to create mobile or free electron-hole pairs via collisions with bound electrons.
 
Yes, if you check the device datasheet, the device will begin to break down or avalanche at 20V working voltage, it's supposed to be capable of flowing 110A repetitively once avalanche breakdown voltage is exceeded. This diode is on the power feed of the computer to protect it from voltage spikes and the intention is once avalanche occurs the 5A fuse limits current to just 5A.

The problem is, the diode once breakdown voltage is exceeded, in many cases is damaged and doesn't recover despite current through the diode is limited to just 5A by the sacrificial fuse. The diode is supposed to be capable of shunting 100A repeatedly but it's behind a whimpy 5A fuse thus if the diode worked as intended, no harm would occur besides just blowing the replaceable fuse. Once the fuse is blown and current stops, the diode should return to it's un-shunted state but the quality of this component unfortunately, or perhaps over time exposure to spikes, weakens it enough to make it unreliable.

If system voltage rises enough to cause the diode to avalanche, there's a good chance of it failing. It's not a good idead to test this unless you're willing to replace the MPEM or perhaps repair it somehow. I think there's a sticky floating around somewhere on an MPEM dissection for this reason.

So to be safe, never connect a power source that will exceed 12.5 volts. Yes, the regulator charging circuit will raise battery voltage beyond 12.5V, I measured mine at 13.8V while the engine was running. 13.8V is enough to fully replenish the charge (of an healthy battery) normally consumed by starting the engine in a reasonable period of time.

Some quality multi-stage battery chargers can take the battery as high as 17 volts briefly while charging, this voltage can trigger the avalanche to occur. This is why it's wise to disconnect the battery while a maintenance charger is attached, or while "BOOST JUMPING" the battery.

So there's no guarantee yours will fail if say a 17 volt source is connected, or even a 20V source perhaps, it shouldn't result in a shorted diode if the diode is working correctly, worst that SHOULD happen is the sacrificial 5A current limiting fuse blows. Attaching any power source greater than 12.5V is just a bad idea unfortunately b/c of the high failure rate. This isn't a design fault, it's a component failure.

Thus when I connect/disconnect or charge my battery, I turn the battery switch off first. Whenever my boat is stored unattended between uses, I also turn the battery switch off.

FWIW, it's not all that uncommon for a vehicle control computer to become damage as a result of some sort of battery event.

The transient supressor is triggered once the system voltage exceeds the reverse breakdown voltage of the diode and once this occurs it begins to avalanche, shunting current to ground as long as the voltage remains above the reverse breakdown voltage. This keeps the overvoltage from travling into the MPEM logic circuit, a type of electronic crowbar. As a result of the 5A fuse, the current through the suppressor diode is limited to 5A, well within it's capability it seems. Perhaps installing a smaller fuse might even keep it from failing, I'm not sure?

If the current being shunted by the diode once it begins to avalanche exceeds the capacity of the fuse (This will occur if the diode fails at any time or the transient is persistent) the fuse will blow and current will stop, the power source for the MPEM logic circuitry will be interrupted.

So if this happens to your MPEM, you might be able to repair it by going inside and replacing the diode, or even just cutting it out of the circuit (not easy or recommended).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_voltage_suppressor

The ONSEMI datasheet provides more info for this surge supressor than the datasheet I posted earlier:

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MR2535L-D.PDF
 
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Get a meter and put the terminals on the hot post of the starter and ground the other lead on the body of the starter. Then have someone crank the engine. This will basically load test the battery as well as let us know if you have cable or connection issues. Once you post the number, we can help you better..

To avoid hijacking this thread, I've started my own.

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?87190-Help-With-Weak-Starter-Starting&p=549717#post549717
 
I have to disagree with a lot that has been posted. There is absolutely no issue with jumping or charging a battery while in the ski. (there is an issue with boosting I will cover in a bit)...

There is a big reason that Sea Doo has that sticker warning. It is there because people are idiots. Almost all electrical issues caused by charging or jumping occur because people hook up the cables backwards. That is it.

Most of the failures of the suppression diodes in MPEM's are caused by hooking up the cables backwards, the second most common is just random failures not caused by overvoltage.

The one caveat has to do with boosting (not charging or jumping) Some old school boosters can put out a lot of voltage.
 
Most of the failures of the suppression diodes in MPEM's are caused by hooking up the cables backwards, the second most common is just random failures not caused by overvoltage.

I think the avalanche diode won't fail due to the battery is connected in reverse. Unless there was no 5A current limiting fuse, then it definitely would fry almost instantly.

In this case the diode is forward biased.

Given power in Watts = Amps x Volts, thus power dissipated would appear to be just 5.5 Watts?

From avalanche diode spec sheet:
IFSM = 600A
VF=1.1V

From Seadoo spec sheet:
MPEM Fuse = 5A

I'm not convinced there's much difference between charging, jumping or boosting a battery to most people, these all mean basically the same thing to me absent any specific detail. Who takes their encyclopaedia with them into the boat yard? Throw in maintaining the battery as well, same thing.

I monitored an fully automatic charger a few months ago b/c I need to know what to expect, while charging a battery the peak voltage reached was 17V. Is this enough to avalanche the diode and cause thermal runaway? Maybe yes, thus disconnect your battery from your MPEM.

What happens if there's a lightening strike somewhere, that spike won't travel through the charger into the MPEM? This kind of thing happens all the time, in winter trees fall on power lines and in summer lightening hits stuff. This past summer lightening hit our boat crane and knocked out the electric motor, blew it to pieces.
 
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I have to disagree with a lot that has been posted. There is absolutely no issue with jumping or charging a battery while in the ski. (there is an issue with boosting I will cover in a bit)...

There is a big reason that Sea Doo has that sticker warning. It is there because people are idiots. Almost all electrical issues caused by charging or jumping occur because people hook up the cables backwards. That is it.

Most of the failures of the suppression diodes in MPEM's are caused by hooking up the cables backwards, the second most common is just random failures not caused by overvoltage.

The one caveat has to do with boosting (not charging or jumping) Some old school boosters can put out a lot of voltage.

I think you will find that a lot of us here will disagree as we have seen first hand MPEM's get fried by boosting with a boost box and a running car that did not involve any crossed wires.

That is also why there is a sticker that says "Do not boost" and not "don't cross the cables".

Why take a chance with a $500 MPEM?
 
I wasn't going to come back into this and debate things,,, but I can't help myself..

I will agree that voltage can absolutely hurt things. That said,,, we are under normal circumstances dealing with 14 volts and lower.. Yes,, when we give out skis 18 volts, odds are good that there will be a problem. Amperage is absolutely a killer. The fusee are rated for 5 and 10 for example, once the amperage, (plus/minus a tolerance), the fuse pops. It is not voltage that pops the fuse when the voltage is within specs. It is either to much load and or a short. The MPEM is pretty tough for what it is, but MANY have been cooked when using chargers above 10 amps (specs say nothing over 2.5 amps) and jump boxes.
 
I'm willing to discuss this further.

Can we agree current doesn't flow between a battery and a charger unless the voltage of the battery is less than the voltage of a charger, correct?

So let's say my battery is 11V, thus it's discharged, and I want to charge it. I have two chargers, one is 2.5A and the other is 10A. Doesn't by definition, the 10A charger must have a higher voltage output to reach 10A of current?

Turns out the 10A charger voltage must be higher then the 2.5A charger to force more current into my battery faster. That's why your 10A charger will avalanche the diode, and MAYBE the 2.5A charger won't (raise the voltage high enough to avalanche the diode).
 
For the OP, I wouldn't risk it, seadoo know there is an issue doing it. I'm pretty sure that decal has been on there since 1988. Guys here have smoked MPEM's jumping them from a running car or using a booster pack. I would just take the results from here reading and helping on past members.



Why debate it guys? It's pretty cut and dry. In over 20+ years of owning Seadoos I've never once hooked a battery charger or another vehicle to one of my toys just to get it to start. Just disconnect the battery, charge it and hook it back up. Really, it's not that hard.


Pretty cut and dry right here? I mean I could put gas in here.


196.jpg
 
That's right, don't risk it. In fact, allow a freshly charged battery to sit and soak off the charger for a few hours and/or measure the voltage to make sure it's not still above 14V before installing it.
 
So I got lost a bit back there. First I'm still not clear how the word "avalanche" fits in with the diode. Is the avalanche what happens when voltage rises above "xx" Volts? What is that voltage? What voltage is the diode trying to maintain. I've seen some voltage regulation circuits before and if the only thing standing between a voltage spike of "xxx" volts and a $500 MPEM is a single diode, then that seems VERY foolish to me. Bad design.

And it seems like there's some disagreement about whether or not it's voltage, amperage, or both that fries the MPEM. And I wonder about things like, how "spiky" is a battery charger, and how does that compare to a car jump-starting, and are there differences in the "spikiness" of battery chargers. Maybe it's the sparking when you connect a hot clamp to the Seadoo. Does it make a difference if there's a battery in parallel with the charger, to "absorb" whatever spiky noise that might come from the charger.

Also, what if these diodes are cheap crap? I know a few things about computer hardware, and one well-known industry dynamic/effect is that motherboard manufacturers frequently go ultra-cheap on capacitors, which might last 3 to 5 years before they fail (the electrolyte leaks, they bulge, and they can burst from heat), or the manufacturers could use high quality (Panasonic, all the way) capacitors that can last 20+ years. The manufacturer saves $3.00 in capacitors and your computer goes tits-up, and takes all the data on your HD when it goes, after only 3 years.

In short, all electronic components are not equal. And there are ways to design circuits to minimize the level of stresses on components, such as possibly using more than one diode in parallel. Not an engineer, but like anything else, you can build it on the cheap, or you can build it to last.

My experience is mostly in computers and there's a LOT of laypersons all repeating the same (false) stories about "why things fail" and "how things are". It's common knowledge. Everyone has heard everyone else say it and everyone believes it and the only problem is they are ALL wrong. Or, if they are right, they are right but the reason why they get the "right" is wrong. The path they take to get there was wrong. This whole MPEM thing feels a bit like that to me. This is why I want to crack open a couple of these things and see what's actually inside. I cracked open my malfunctioning 24" monitor and found that 3 of the 4 capacitors in the voltage conversion (110VAC to xxx VDC) were burnt. $5.00 in capacitors and the monitor works now.

What if a $5.00 Avalanche Diode makes a $500 MPEM work again? What if two $5.00 Avalanche Diodes in parallel make a repaired MPEM BETTER than the OEM original?

Does anyone have any schematics?
 
For the OP, I wouldn't risk it, seadoo know there is an issue doing it. I'm pretty sure that decal has been on there since 1988. Guys here have smoked MPEM's jumping them from a running car or using a booster pack. I would just take the results from here reading and helping on past members.



Why debate it guys? It's pretty cut and dry. In over 20+ years of owning Seadoos I've never once hooked a battery charger or another vehicle to one of my toys just to get it to start. Just disconnect the battery, charge it and hook it back up. Really, it's not that hard.


Pretty cut and dry right here? I mean I could put gas in here.


196.jpg

LOL, getting further off topic, my wife did just that and filled our F-350 diesel with 25 gallons of gas. At least she realized it before driving off but it was not fun trying to find a place that would take 30 gallons of now "Hazardous Waste".
 
LOL... I recommend that everyone just jump the skis with boost boxes and 24VDC bats. And then let me have to concession to sell new parts. Hey I'll even sell diodes and a repair kit for $49.99. But have fun digging out the potting compound....

Oh, and I got a free nice lawnmower that didn't run. I found the gas tank full of motor oil.... Dumped it out, drained the carb and it ran for about 9 more years.
 
LOL, getting further off topic, my wife did just that and filled our F-350 diesel with 25 gallons of gas. At least she realized it before driving off but it was not fun trying to find a place that would take 30 gallons of now "Hazardous Waste".

I did the opposite once, filled up my empty camaro with diesel fuel. I did make it home (two blocks) and by the time I arrived that thing sounded like a diesel F350 but smoked a bit more.
 
us there a issue usibg a 1.25 amp battery tender ?
https://www.batterystuff.com/all-products-by-brand/deltran/BT-021-0128.html

\ive always had one on my motorcycles that sit a lot between use if there is a pronlem I suppose you could install a battery switch like In a boat to disconnect the battery allrogerher then turn on the tender but id want a small switch

Aside from lightening storms, power surges due to trees falling on power lines and the usual dirty power for various reasons....

What is the maximum voltage output of the charger? Let's say it can raise the battery voltage high enough during the last bit of charging when battery voltage reaches the gassing phase, the battery stops accepting current and voltage shoots up if the charger has a high limit. This is typical of the best multistage type chargers that detect battery condition and adjust accordingly. Regardless of the strategy, if voltage rises enough to cause the surge diode to begin conducting it might overheat and burn up.

For instance, your battery charge curve might look something like this image. See the little spike in battery voltage where the charger detects the battery has stopped accepting charge and switches to float mode? The battery voltage peak informs the charger to switch into float mode. I've measured 17V at that instant on one of my 10A intelligent chargers.
 

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    Battery Charge Curve.jpg
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Let me clear up a couple things. First let me explain that I have designed a lot of circuits used in automotive applications. (Including some that are used today on pwc's....) All of these have been designed with voltage conditioning on the power supply, because vehicle power is incredibly noisy and dirty. The avalanche diode coupled with the 5 amp fuse is a very common and cost efficient approach, because these types of devices are very fast and suppress both positive and negative transients. This particular device is very robust. The spec on this device is avalanche in a range from 24 to 32 volts. This means that somewhere between 24 and 32 volts, it will start to shunt power to ground.

There are two potential sources of failure on this device, both which I pointed out in my earlier post. Not only does this design protect against transients, it should also protect against inadvertent reversal of polarity, because the diode will be forward biased, and conduct the power directly to ground. When this happens the fuse should blow, protecting the diode. However, I have plenty of experience where this doesn't work, primarily because a 5 amp fuse doesn't actually blow at 5 amps, until many seconds later. The instantaneous amperage can be hundreds of amps, dropping to around 40 amps after about 10 milliseconds during the process of blowing. I have seen this kill many fairly robust diodes. That is why I said that the primary cause of this type of failure is reversal of power.

The only concern about failures associated with battery chargers and boosters is what I posted earlier. If you have a battery charger that puts out greater than 24 volts, then throw it away. A good battery charger with a very light load should not output more than 15-16 volts, dropping to 14 volts with a few hundred millamps load. Some old school boosters (built before the advent of car electronics ) can put out 25-30 volts. This will kill the diode.
 
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