Changed fuel pump, still no fuel...

[Nate490]

2010 Challenger 180SE. A couple of weeks ago I was out on the bay and running great for about 2 hours, stopped for about 2 hours and then when we went to leave it wouldn’t start. Had to get towed home (thank god for insurance!). Once I got it in the driveway I tried to start it and still nothing but after all the cranking I did I couldn’t smell any fuel so I assumed it wasn’t getting any fuel. I took the intake hose off and sprayed a little bit of starting fluid in the carb and bam it started right up. Because this happened on my last boat and it was a fuel pump I just assumed that’s what it was and I ordered one up. I finally got some time to swap out the pump but it still won’t start! Ugh! I know, rookie move assuming it would be as easy as a fuel pump. I pulled the fuel line off at the fuel rail and sure enough it was bone dry. Checked the fuse for the fuel pump and it was good. You guys have any ideas? I’m not getting any faults on screen and my dash doesn’t have a “mode” button to check for faults. After I crank the engine over I can hear some clicking at the carb which I can only assume is the throttle position sensor, I’ve never had the hatch open when I start the boat so I’m not sure what the noises are supposed to be. So, again I spray a little starting fluid in the carb again, bam fires RIGHT up!

I took the fuel pump back out and verified that it worked by connecting it to a 12v source and re installed it. Not getting any power to the pump with a voltmeter. Fuses are good. ARRRRRG!!! Any ideas before I drag it to the mechanic...?

 

[JPass]

You need to find the circuit for the fuel pump and figure out where the power is being lost from the switch to the pump. You've already figured out the problem (no power to feul pump), now you need to figure out why and where.

 

[Nate490]

Alright so a little update. I’ve been super busy so I’ve only gotten to work on it little bits here and there.

First, turned out my voltmeter was broken and I DO have power at the pump. However, still no fuel pumping. I unplugged the fuel pump at the top of the gas tank and hit the contacts with a separate 12V source and the pump fired right up so I know the fuel pump itself is good.

Talking to my local Jet Ski repair shop (Jet Ski repair shop in St Pete FL, I can’t say enough good things about this guy, he is awesome) he seems to think it’s the ECM as the system is live with 12V always and the ECM controls the ground. Which would make sense because I was using the engine block as a ground when I was looking for power. The only problem with this theory is that I brought my ECM to his shop, we plugged it into another 215 and the fuel pump activated as soon as we put the key on. Hmmmm... He did show me a stack of about 5 or 6 ECM’s at his shop that all have the same problem, will not run the fuel pump. (He saves everything!)

I’m now curious if it’s an intermittent ECM problem as I did have one other time that I ran it for about 2 hours, got back to the dock, backed the trailer in and then it would NOT start after that. I left it parked at home for about a week and then it ran great for the next 3 or so runs. I think I’m going to try and get a used ECM and hopefully that will remedy the problem. As I understand they’re over $1000 new but you can pick one up used for much less, anyone have any recommendations where I can get one used? Thank you for any and all information in advance!!

 

[Nate490]

Alright, little update. I got the ECM back home, plugged into the boat and as usual, no fuel pump. I hooked the volt meter up to the fuel pump plug using plugs 12V and the fuel pump plugs ground & when I plug the key in, I get about 9.5V for about 2 seconds and then it drops to about 7.5V. If I move the ground directly to the engine block I get the full 12V???

So... it’s looking like the problem is definitely ground related. Looking at the ground wires on the engine block they all looked pretty good visually but I removed all of them from the block and wire brushed each one & then reconnected them. I’ll admit I was a little excited thinking this would fix the problem but alas, everything still resulted exactly the same...

I’m again at a loss... what would cause a low ground connection? All the wires look good. You guys have any ideas?

 

[devonte007]

Sounds like you are narrowing down the problem..electrical gremlins like this can be daunting to track down.

Do you have a copy of the shop manual for your boat? That is always the first place I start when tackling a problem, follow the troubleshooting guides. I have not spent much time in the fuel pump section, but I'm sure there information about how to diagnose electrical/grounding issues.

Since it seems like your issue is on the ground side of the circuit, you need to start working upstream from the pump back to the ECM, which is where I assume the wire terminates. Run some continuity/resistance tests to ensure that ground wire is in good working order, no breaks/corrosion etc. If that checks out, keep checking all grounds going upstream until you get to the engine block. Your voltmeter is your friend here. Also pull apart any and all connectors to check for signs of corrosion on terminals, check any relays or other components that may be inline which there probably is on the fuel system.

If the ground side checks out then double check the + side wires as well. If you have gone through all the wire troubleshooting, and if everything checks out then it may be an ECM. As you stated though, your mechanic checked your ECM and got it to work on another machine. This probably means your problem is in the wiring/connections.

Again I am just shooting in the dark here, you really need to study fuel system circuit in the shop manual; I may be totally off base. If I have time I'll take a look in my shop manual (2004) and let you know if anything pops out at me. Like I said, electrical problems can be time consuming to find but if you are methodical the issue will present itself eventually.

 

[Nate490]

Sounds like you are narrowing down the problem..electrical gremlins like this can be daunting to track down.

Do you have a copy of the shop manual for your boat? That is always the first place I start when tackling a problem, follow the troubleshooting guides. I have not spent much time in the fuel pump section, but I'm sure there information about how to diagnose electrical/grounding issues.

Since it seems like your issue is on the ground side of the circuit, you need to start working upstream from the pump back to the ECM, which is where I assume the wire terminates. Run some continuity/resistance tests to ensure that ground wire is in good working order, no breaks/corrosion etc. If that checks out, keep checking all grounds going upstream until you get to the engine block. Your voltmeter is your friend here. Also pull apart any and all connectors to check for signs of corrosion on terminals, check any relays or other components that may be inline which there probably is on the fuel system.

If the ground side checks out then double check the + side wires as well. If you have gone through all the wire troubleshooting, and if everything checks out then it may be an ECM. As you stated though, your mechanic checked your ECM and got it to work on another machine. This probably means your problem is in the wiring/connections.

Again I am just shooting in the dark here, you really need to study fuel system circuit in the shop manual; I may be totally off base. If I have time I'll take a look in my shop manual (2004) and let you know if anything pops out at me. Like I said, electrical problems can be time consuming to find but if you are methodical the issue will present itself eventually.

Will do! The most frustrating thing is trying to find the time to get in there. The other frustrating thing is I’m starting to get the feeling that it’s something real stupid that causing all these issues. I’ll keep the post updated with what I find.

 

[Nate490]

So, it’s definitely a ground problem. If I put my meter on the + of the fuel pump plug and the - on the engine block I get full 12V when I turn the key on but if I put the + & - of my meter on the pins of the fuel pump plug I only get 7-9V. I removed and cleaned all the ground connectors on the engine block but that didn’t help. I removed all of the wire loom and traced the ground from the fuel pump and it goes into the ECM. So now what......?

 

[enut]

Have you checked the ground connections from the ecm and fuse block to ground?

Also would the shop be willing to do a temporary swap of the ecm?

 

[Nate490]

Have you checked the ground connections from the ecm and fuse block to ground?

Also would the shop be willing to do a temporary swap of the ecm?

I took the ECM to the local shop, he put it in a 215 there and the fuel pump worked every time we turned it on. I took an ECM that he had and installed it my boat and still nothing. A assumed all of the ground cables went to the same spot on the front of the engine, I removed, wire brushed and reinstalled all of them, admittedly they looked pretty good to begin with. I will investigate more grounding options.

 

[jhjesse]

Could it be the ground wire itself? Maybe try another ground wire as a jumper just to verify.

 

[JPass]

Could it be the ground wire itself? Maybe try another ground wire as a jumper just to verify.

I agree. Try running a temporary ground from the pump and then try starting the boat (be sure your ground is good and there's no chance of sparks). If this works, then you know there's an issue with the original ground.

 

[devonte007]

I completely agree with the last couple posts. I would test a temporary jump wire back to ECM. It wasn't clear in your last post whether or not you checked the continuity and resistance of the original suspect ground wire? To do this you will likely need to remove the wiring harness from the ECM to have access to the plug contact of that particular wire.

 

[Nate490]

I completely agree with the last couple posts. I would test a temporary jump wire back to ECM. It wasn't clear in your last post whether or not you checked the continuity and resistance of the original suspect ground wire? To do this you will likely need to remove the wiring harness from the ECM to have access to the plug contact of that particular wire.

Good idea, I will check the continuity of the original ground wire. If that doesn’t give me any answers I’ll jump it. Originally I was trying to avoid cutting the ground wire but i think it’s inevitable in order to determine the issue.

 

[Nate490]

Small update, sorry I haven’t posted the solution but here goes. I jumped the ground directly from the pump to the engine block and the pump/boat fired right up and ran perfectly. Checked the ground wire between the pump and ECM and everything still checked out. I ended up bringing the boat to the local repair shop (The Jet Ski Repair shop in St Petersburg FL) and we both worked on it for HOURS! The owner of the shop was completely stumped too but finally figured it out. It ended up that it WAS the ground wire between the pump and the ECM. He replaced the wire completely (even though metering it said it was good) and it worked perfectly.

On a sad note, my wife ended up taking a promotion at her job and we had to move to northwest Houston. We are about an hour from the nearest water and decided to sell the boat before we left FL. I say nearest “water” because it’s only water by definition, it’s really gross and there’s only a small amount of people that are willing swim in any water here. After living/boating in FL I just couldn’t bring myself to boat in water that has zero visibility and is just brown and gross. We took a HUGE financial loss on the boat but someone got a great deal on a great boat. We miss it every day and can’t wait to move back to FL, Texas blows goats.