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Carb Issues

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Yep, the more I think about it.... The more it seems to be a prop issue. I've been stuck on the engine and carbs, rave valves. I'm gonna repair the water valve and then I'm gonna look at the prop. Now that I'm thinking about it... the cguy I purchased this ski from told me his dad ran the ski on some rocks and damaged the drive shaft. That would mean the propeller as well. This makes me question the prop he put on there. The wear ring Looked pretty new so I didn't mess with that end.
If the original color of the 98 engine was white that's the problematic engine, the 99 and up are silver-grey. Like I said in the beginning, I think your pop-off is a little high. The pulse (pulse is alternating pressure/vacuum) runs the fuel pumps, fuel pumps supply fuel to the carbs to go faster, going faster makes higher pulse (higher vacuum/ higher pressure) which allows more fuel to start the whole process at the next level of rpm, and if your pop-off is a little too high it stumbles along very slowly getting a few more rpm and in turn allowing a little more fuel till finally it takes off. I went through the same thing learning with a 94 650XP. Put on aftermarket flame arrestors and if I nailed it nothing would happen because the lower restriction arresters didn't allow the engine to get fuel, as the piston goes down on intake it pulls air, with less intake restriction it's easier for air to go by the arrestors than it is for that air to pull on the fuel pump diaphragm, but if I'd feather it, give a little throttle and back off a tiny bit and now I'm making more intake restriction with the throttle butterfly plates and the XP would take off quicker. I bet you put it on the hose and give it the smallest amount of throttle to raise rpm and it will rev since there's no load on the engine, therefore for the same throttle setting as in the water it will make a higher rpm out of the water with no load. I learned that when I gave it throttle and you feel it start to fall on it's face to quickly back off and then repeat with some throttle but backing off just when you think it's going to stumble and it would take off. And I had set the pop-off to what I was told is stock. My 785 XP with the big 46mm Buckshots will literally will launch when you stab the throttle and my pop-off is in the 12-13lb range. You tried everything else, just drop yor pop-off a couple lbs from where it was when you started. You never said what size N&S you used and what size was in it originally, Needle and seat size works together with spring size on pop-off, the N&S is what the pop-off spring tries to keep closed and fuel pressure (from the pulse operating fuel pump) is what tries to open the N&S. Sorry for the length, just trying to explain it from every angle. Remember, low pulse = low fuel pressure, low fuel pressure and less N&S opening, less opening = less rpm building, like a dog chasing it's tail, pop-off is set to gives just a little more fuel to go but low enough when throttle released the fuel shuts off preventing engine flooding. Jut try lower pop-off. Don't forget, what was and is the N&S size.... Lee
 
Don't forget, what was and is the N&S size.... Lee

Needle and Seat is now Mikuni 1.5 with the pop-off at 31-32psi. Previously the pop-off was 23psi, then I went to 27psi. It runs a lot better at the present setting. I'm an old motorcycle racer and fixer upper and make em' go faster. LOL If I can't get it to go something is indeed wrong. I try all the throttle positions, approaches and I listen to the engine, feel, etc.... At present this engine has never run better. Takes off good from idle, no sputtering, smooth acceleration and when it gets over that hump.... hang on.

I probably mentioned I put too much prop on my 96 SPI that has some performance mods. It acted a lot like this ski. Died in the corners and had to work up in a straight line to get it's speed up. Top speed was good but nothing on bottom. When I put the old prop back on the SPI it woke up and kicked azz in the corners and at low speed and still made the same top speed.

Thanks for the input on the flame arrestors as I was thinking about doing just that. We certainly have traveled along the same paths. LOL I have 7 good jet skis and 2 for parts at present. I am working on all but 1 of them. Ha ha. These two GTXs are my keepers so you better believe they will be spot on and fast.

The original needle and seats I could not read the numbers but I would imagine they were 1.5s. My ski does much better down low with the higher Pop-Off setting. I believe the needles are prone to leaking with the 1.5s at the minimum Pop-Off setting. They run rich. I did read that with larger needles and seats you do need to lower the Pop-Off. I have all the Mikuni carb recommendations and information from Mikuni.

Thanks so much for the input.
 
Once again your skis should run perfect with the stock carb settings, if not something is wrong.
 
Once again your skis should run perfect with the stock carb settings, if not something is wrong.
x2
Remember, you can't jet an overpropped ski. Still sounds like fuel starved till it builds enough RPM and fuel pressure then it takes off. Running out of possibilities, Did you eyeball the small plastic check valve on the fuel block?
fuel block.JPG
 
Just occured to me, since you rebuilt the engine did you check your squish clearance?
Where is your home base? Ever go to Havasu?
 
Louisiana, da South end. :) Of course I checked the squish. A little too much clearance but I believe the WSM pistons made up the difference. I was around 180PSI. I likes em' tight !! I rode today and the 1996 GTX only managed 6530 RPM Wide open (I never built the engine in this ski). The speedo said 45, the digital on the ski said 49mph. It was pretty choppy but that's all I have been seeing on that ski. I raced my wife from a 5mph roll on. I figured the 96 would win because it doesn't have the hesitation the 97 has. I never pulled her even a boat length and she walked on by me as our speed got up. I love tuning these things and I'm gonna love it more when I WIN !! LOL If it is true these skis run 55mph... I'm gonna get both of them there. :)
 
We are winding up a week of kick azz fun in Florida. The GTXs performed well. I did the salt away thing and cleaned them up good today. Headed home tomorrow and look out... Gene will be head down and butt up working on jet skis. Gonna use my borescope to get some impeller numbers off both skis. Even the way they run now they are hella fun. Wait till you read about what I come up with NEXT to tune these skis. :D :D
 
Wait! A stock engine should never be 180 psi. If your gauge is correct something is wrong.
 
Once again your skis should run perfect with the stock carb settings, if not something is wrong.
x2
Remember, you can't jet an overpropped ski. Still sounds like fuel starved till it builds enough RPM and fuel pressure then it takes off. Running out of possibilities, Did you eyeball the small plastic check valve on the fuel block?
View attachment 36219
Once again your skis should run perfect with the stock carb settings, if not something is wrong.
x2
Remember, you can't jet an overpropped ski. Still sounds like fuel starved till it builds enough RPM and fuel pressure then it takes off. Running out of possibilities, Did you eyeball the small plastic check valve on the fuel block?
View attachment 36219
I live inside these carburetors. :D The ski in question has always been rich... raising the pop off helped performance below 35mph and help the ski get up and over the flat spot but the flat spot is still there. Now I have smooth acceleration. If I open the PTO carb high speed adjuster... I lose performance. Both high speed adjusters closed. That tells me..... RICH. The good thing for me is, I have two of the exact same skis to mess with. Both run about the same speeds.

I'm gonna check the props on both skis. This is just something I want to eliminate.
 
Help me understand something, you say you measured squish, a little too much clearance but you believe the WSM pistons made up the difference. Since the squish is between the head and piston, how could the pistons make up the difference since they are measured after assembly. Maybe I need to ask the method you use. I've seen .020 difference and a modded ski that was no faster than stock turned into a rocket by closing the gap.
 
Help me understand something, you say you measured squish, a little too much clearance but you believe the WSM pistons made up the difference. Since the squish is between the head and piston, how could the pistons make up the difference since they are measured after assembly. Maybe I need to ask the method you use. I've seen .020 difference and a modded ski that was no faster than stock turned into a rocket by closing the gap.

The squish measurements were spot on. :) If you were a piston manufacturer wouldn't you be a little bit aggressive in the piston shape to enhance performance? Gotta have an edge. " If you ain't cheatin, you ain't trying hard enough to win." LOL
 
The piston is what it is since you take the measurement after assembly, if the piston was .010 taller you get whatever measurement you get, I use ,039 to .043. I even take the cylinders bare not installed and bolt the head shell and domes to it and center both cylinders on the domes' with the exhaust manifold bolted on to square the mating surfaces and scribe little marks so can assemble and squish is the same front to back (over the wrist pins and I hit between 7600 +with a Solas XO (16.5-23.5*), when I have a X prop (16-23*) I've hit 8000 a couple times but was using straight C-12 in it, the more RPM the more motor octane needed. Your chain is only as good as your weakest link. 8000RPM and my flywheel exploded with a big piece going through bottom of mag cover then through the hull.... The factory service manual gives a range of acceptable squish so there's no "exact spot on" measurement . Try to be methodological in assembly and don't talk yourself into straying from the industry standard ways basing your analogy on "if this is good more must be better" type of thing. And to find exact top dead center don't use when the needle stops moving as the crankpin moves horizontal at TDC, mark .020 before TDC and after TDC then measure with dial calipers where the calipers have one tip one .020 before and .020 after and the other tip touches the same spot in the middle measuring from either side if that makes sense.
 
You and I connect. :) I like the way you do that as it is so very accurate. So when you measure both to make sure they are the same front to back... how do you correct and deviations ? Machine the cylinders ??

By the way, I won't deviate from manufacturer specs but as you stated.... the range is there and anything within that range is acceptable. I got some grief on this board for suggesting that I would machine the cylinders to get it tighter. I am a believer in getting the measurement to the tight side of tolerance.

Regarding your statement about squish measurement and piston clearance.... if the aftermarket manufacturer opts to make the dome a little higher by changing the profile, squish will not reveal that. This is not an argument but my assessment of why, with loose squish numbers, I didn't get a drop in compression. That said... how much compression drop would .006" cause anyway? :) But as you stated .006" (.069") over to .-015 (.049") less can be a hell of a difference in power production.
 

OK, lets get back to my (2) GTXs and performance. If I can believe the tach and the tach on the info center... both agree. I'm at 6530 RPM. Top speed 49mph on the 1996. I have not done anything to the engine on this ski other than correct pick up issues. I did the carbs, fuel system, and other checks. It got lots of love just no engine work. It is the slower of the two. This is not the ski where I need to identify the impeller.

1997 GTX.... runs like a raped ape when I get it over 6K RPM. Got it running good below 5K but hesitates, no loading up, no lean indications just takes a few seconds to get over the hump. This is the ski I want to check for the proper impeller number.

If these skis are supposed to run 55mph on the GPS, I have technical work to do. I am only looking for book performance.

As I stated, the 96 is getting a pop off adjustment and I am dropping down a size on the main jets. At present I cannot open the high speed adjusters at all. If I open the PTO high speed adjuster to a recommended setting I lose top end RPM.

Perhaps I need to install an accurate RPM gauge. I need good information.
 
You get them as even as possible with the method I described, bolt head and ex man to cylinders and move cylinders till you can see the dome is centered in the cylinder bore, tighten bolts snug and scribe alignment marks across from head shell to cylinder. If the cylinders don't have enough room when setting in the case to align your marks you try and get it as close to even as possible a couple thousandths is no big deal since most builders never consider the 1 case and 1 head shell but 2 cylinders and the how much wiggle room there is. Someplace I remember a builder of some stature gave a measurement of what the distance should be from one cylinder wall to the other but as domes are shifted off center one side squish gets tighter as the other side of the same cylinder squish gets wider. Another way to set it up before you scribe it is snug the cylinders in the case and ex man to cylinders (to keep the surfaces parallel) and barely snug the shell and domes, carefully remove ex man and you can use an inspection mirror to adjust domes/shell and cylinders to get the best symmetrical alignment. replace ex man then snug up all the bolts and scribe the alignment marks, I do 2 marks on 3 sides of each cylinder to head shell, then I make sure there's no step from cylinder ex port and ex man. It's tedious but once you have your marks you can reassemble the engine quick the next time(s) by aligning marks and torque it down. Might take a couple times on the first rebuild to try different thickness base gaskets to get the squish measurement you are looking for but that's old school Rotax rotary valve design you have to deal with. My last rebuild before the current on lasted 12 years of 7600+ RPM and had no hesitation to ride from Body Beach Havasu past Topock and the I40 freeway or down river to the Parker dam. This stuff isn't really necessary with a stocker but a on a mod it adds up and the last 10% of the build takes 90% of the time.
 
Makes me think of machining a plug for the cylinder bore size with an extension to fit through the spark plug hole. That should help with the cylinder base as well. Thoughts ??

Where are you buying your base gaskets??
 
I strongly suggest you change 1 item at a time when tuning, doing 2, 1 might help and 1 might hurt and you get lost that way, 1 at a time and it either helps or it doesn't. And whoa there pardner, if a ski runs well above 6000 RPM forget the prop for now, concentrate on jetting. You want jets that will require the screws to be about 3/4 to 1 turn out to have adjustment either way. I personally run a little rich at idle, so when hard on the throttle and then let off (like setting up a buoy turn) then get on the throttle hard there isn't any hesitation from leaning out. Your full throttle fuel requirements are a total of idle/low speed jet/low speed adjuster/main jet/high speed adjuster. If your full throttle jetting is right and you change low adjustment or low speed jet you have to compensate your high speed if you were satisfied with the full throttle jetting. And forget plug readings with the junk fuel today and those that run Mr Frugal race fuel (aviation fuel) all you'll see on the plugs is gray, rich or lean, it's specific gravity is lighter than pump gas. Maybe later I'll get into what the R + M / 2 = octane (which is really the AKI-Anti Knock Index) that you see on the gas pumps mean and see who uses AMP(X), you know what gas I'm talking about, and think they are saving money. Have real people results.
 
I am still going to check the prop numbers. I had a SPI that get on the pipe up high with too much prop down low. Made me suspect the carbs. Swapped the prop and BAM !! Rockin and rollin !!

Soon as I open the high speed adjuster on the slower GTX I lose top end RPM. That tells me it is getting too much fuel up high. I might raise the pop off above the 24 where it is at present. The high RPM on the fuel pump might be over coming the low pop off setting causing fuel to enter. Both of these skis ran better with cooler temperatures earlier in the year which is why I' want to drop the main jet size on the slower ski just to test my theory. Our density altitude around here can get as high as 2300' and we are at sea level. That makes for a rich mixture however small.

My wife and I are discussing the difference in the skis performance. Her ski, the 96 when it gets on the pipe you gotta hang on. Down low it pulls but not hard. The 97 doesn't pull really hard but gets up smoothly with no hesitation but is no match for her ski up high (above 6k) The 97s RPM if it can be believed is 6500. Speed wise it almost matches my wife's ski top end. Her's is faster and indicating 7K rpm. I love this shiznet.... I'm closing in on these $umbishes.
 
If you are down 500 rpm on top I would look at the water regulator on the waterbox.
 
You still don't understand the pop-off operation, if you try to raise pop-off the adjust a high RPM issue all you will do is starve the engine for fuel until the pop-off opens. The pop-off mechanism is just there because these carbs have no float bowl, where the fuel is available as the engine needs it, no floatbowl because any fuel out an overflow or flipping the ski over would create a bomb inside the hull with all the vapors. Just for arguments sake lets say you increased pop-off to where it would affect your high speed jetting issue, that means the pop-off wouldn't open until you were at that high RPM, so how is the engine going to get fuel to get to that high RPM if the pop-off hasn't opened, no pop-off opening = no fuel. Imagine someone trying to jet a high speed/rpm issue by lowering the float(fuel) level in a conventional carb, would you think they understood how that carb worked? C'MON, I'm not going to repeat this stuff over and over for your benefit if you keep going down the same path with higher pop-off to correct a high speed jet issue, if there isn't anything wrong with the skis components you need a smaller main jet so your high speed screw is about 1 turn open for it to run decent and give you an adjustment range on the screw, open richens and closing leans. Just do it before you have the prop, pop-off, water through the pipe, etc totally out of spec you won't know where to go next. Adios, I'm gone until you make progress at getting your head around the pop-off purpose and operation, can't describe it any other way and no need to keep saying the same thing. I'm not mad, just frustrated I haven't been able to explain it to make sense to you.
 
I will check the regulator but I'm not sure I trust the tachs.
You still don't understand the pop-off operation, if you try to raise pop-off the adjust a high RPM issue all you will do is starve the engine for fuel until the pop-off opens. The pop-off mechanism is just there because these carbs have no float bowl, where the fuel is available as the engine needs it, no floatbowl because any fuel out an overflow or flipping the ski over would create a bomb inside the hull with all the vapors. Just for arguments sake lets say you increased pop-off to where it would affect your high speed jetting issue, that means the pop-off wouldn't open until you were at that high RPM, so how is the engine going to get fuel to get to that high RPM if the pop-off hasn't opened, no pop-off opening = no fuel. Imagine someone trying to jet a high speed/rpm issue by lowering the float(fuel) level in a conventional carb, would you think they understood how that carb worked? C'MON, I'm not going to repeat this stuff over and over for your benefit if you keep going down the same path with higher pop-off to correct a high speed jet issue, if there isn't anything wrong with the skis components you need a smaller main jet so your high speed screw is about 1 turn open for it to run decent and give you an adjustment range on the screw, open richens and closing leans. Just do it before you have the prop, pop-off, water through the pipe, etc totally out of spec you won't know where to go next. Adios, I'm gone until you make progress at getting your head around the pop-off purpose and operation, can't describe it any other way and no need to keep saying the same thing. I'm not mad, just frustrated I haven't been able to explain it to make sense to you.
 
I appreciate your trying to help. :) I have multiple issues and two different skis so I can see where it can become confusing for you. I have not mentioned why I am raising the pop off of the 96 GTX and it isn't due to high RPM performance. I know the higher pop off, currently at 23psi will help the transition area. I now have the correct black springs for the ski and I will look at the needles and seats that are currently installed. I am pretty sure the black springs and the correct needle and seats will get the pop off where it needs to be.

The upper RPM performance is another matter. That's why I have140mm jets. :)
 
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