1997 GTX revival - not starting

[ToddinTO]

Yes, 2nd set of new BR8ES plugs, with .020 gap. (I have not tried a wider gap)

I plan to disconnect both the in/out fuel lines, and put a small container of mix on the input side and another on the return side, crank it and make sure that there is flow out of the one in front (pickup) and some going into the one in the rear (return).

 

[ToddinTO]

So here's the latest . . . .

The clamp on the fuel pump was difficult to get to with the screwdriver to loosen the clamp (without removing the air box), and it was getting dark. I removed the return line put on a small piece of hose on the y connector then into a container, if there it fuel running out of the return line, it must mean there is an excess fuel coming into the carbs, right?

Cranked it for about 60 seconds overall with the choke on and a freshly charged battery, no ignition, however, there was about 4-6oz of fuel in the container from the return line.

I decided to remove the plugs and put in some mix to prime them and see if made a difference, while the plugs were out, I thought I would double check the plugs. Checked the gap again, they were set at .020in. Connected some ground clamps to the plugs and to the manifold, started cranking, nice good spark, then after a couple of seconds nothing, no more spark, few seconds later, spark again, then no spark any longer!!!!

So I checked;

1. Spark plug caps to ensure they were tight,
2. ground wires/clamp from plug body to the manifold,
3. checked the small black wire off the battery into the rear electrical box,
4. unplugged and replugged the 6 conductor plug into the rear box,
5. unplugged and replugged the connector to the stator/pickup,
6. still no spark
7. disconnected, reconnected the battery and put on the key, cranked it now and there was a spark again,
8. put some mix in the cylinders, plugs back in,
9. cranked it again, no ignition,
10. removed the plugs and again . . . no spark!!!

So . . . I think the root of my hard to start issue is an INTERMITTENT spark issue, not RV, not fuel, not timing!!!!

While I was cranking the engine I wiggled as many wires as I could reach, rear electrical connector, small ground into the rear elec box, connector from stator and pickup, wires running along the inside of the hull, no spark appeared. I was hoping that if I found the flakey connection the spark would come and go as I moved it.

I will check the wiring diagram and reconfirm that the Red/Purple wire running from the rear elec box to the MPEM has 12v and wiggle it through its length to make sure there is no corrosion someplace in the wire, or run a temp wire to see if that makes a difference. I have already cleaned all the grounds in the MPEM box, but will wiggle them while checking them individually as well.

Although if the 12v line was flakey, I would not expect the infocenter to work the whole time. (still flashing the 12v low message when cranking).

Also will check the resistance and pulse from the pickup, as well as the signal on the white wire from the MPEM to the rear elec box/coil.

Where does the MPEM get its ground from, just off the black wire coming from the connector on the stator/pickup coil, thats what it looks like from the wiring diagram?

I am dreading that this comes down to a spastic MPEM, do these symptoms sound like it be the MPEM, even though I get the two beeps and it cranks fine? I did ask Nick at Westside Powersports about one for this model/year, it will be about $800cdn for a known good one, with two keys and shipping.

It will be a couple of days til I can work on it again, thanks to all who have shared their expertise, greatly appreciated!

 

[GGuillot]

Where does the MPEM get its ground from, just off the black wire coming from the connector on the stator/pickup coil, thats what it looks like from the wiring diagram?

I am dreading that this comes down to a spastic MPEM, do these symptoms sound like it be the MPEM, even though I get the two beeps and it cranks fine? I did ask Nick at Westside Powersports about one for this model/year, it will be about $800cdn for a known good one, with two keys and shipping.

That's a jump in cost, $800 seems steep, but you're in Toronto.

You wouldn't get the info gauge to light up if the red/pur wire didn't have voltage on it. The info gauge needs two 12 volts sources to come on. The ground at the stator and the rear electrical are fine, you'd get nothing in order to crank or a popped fuse if it was bad.

I think the next move I'd do is get another coil, they don't go bad often but the do go bad. I'd put off the MPEM as the last resort, that's got the ignition pulse in it, but I wouldn't cross that bridge just yet..

Sounds like you have fuel, the intermittent spark seems to be your problem, I'm going with the coil. I don't think the stator pick up would be intermittent, but I don't know at this point. And like I said, you don't want it to be the MPEM right now.

 

[ToddinTO]

Thanks for confirming about the 12v supply, and grounds for MPEM, etc.

$800 is Canadian dollars, so the exchange, taxes, shipping . . . . .

I put in a new coil in the spring, also, when the dealer was attempting to fix it they had apparently tried swapping out the coil too with no affect. I can put the old coil back in, it did not test bad when I checked it, but thought for the 30$, I wanted to just eliminate it as an issue.

I did NOT change the HV wires or plug caps when the coil was changed, the new coil did come with new wires but they were too short so I reused the original ones. Both original wires reported zero ohms, and I did test while bending the wires to ensure there was not a break anywhere in them.

For piece of mind I may just go and get some new wires/caps. I know there are resistors in the caps, are there any special details I need to purchase some new ones?

 

[Ckrawiec]

Nothing to offer right now BUT MORAL SUPPORT.....I feel your pain...my 1996 GTX is being a bit of a bitch too....hard to start...I've been through the carbs, electric system, etc, etc....last thing on the list is the MPEM....but it feels like the ski is ALMOST right there so I haven't taken the plunge for a new (or good old one) yet. Keep at it and keep us posted....I'm watching this thread closely for any revelations.

 

[ToddinTO]

Thanks for the support, I will definitely keep posting the updates.

While this can be frustrating at times, I am so thankful that I am dealing with this now, and not leaving my wife or daughters or myself stranded out on the water someplace!

I have not even had it in the water yet, so after the engine is running OK, there may be items to address with the pump. The gelcoat is not too good, I am anxious to go through the process outlined by GGuillot where he restored the 97 GTX he has!

Basically, the guy I bought it from who said it was running great was stringing me along, he was not mechanically inclined so he said all the service was done at a nearby marina. I am now wondering if that was the case. Anyways, it is providing the opportunity to build my knowledge of the inner workings of the craft and be better prepared to deal with any items in the future.

 

[Ckrawiec]

Thanks for the support, I will definitely keep posting the updates.

While this can be frustrating at times, I am so thankful that I am dealing with this now, and not leaving my wife or daughters or myself stranded out on the water someplace!

I have not even had it in the water yet, so after the engine is running OK, there may be items to address with the pump. The gelcoat is not too good, I am anxious to go through the process outlined by GGuillot where he restored the 97 GTX he has!

Basically, the guy I bought it from who said it was running great was stringing me along, he was not mechanically inclined so he said all the service was done at a nearby marina. I am now wondering if that was the case. Anyways, it is providing the opportunity to build my knowledge of the inner workings of the craft and be better prepared to deal with any items in the future.

Not to rain on your parade....just be prepared for the day when you get her running well on the trailer.....running in the water will be a completely different story (perhaps). These older skis have a way of keeping us VERY humble. The water load on the engine is really the test as to how the ski will ultimately perform....THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO RUN WELL ON THE TRAILER....very frustrating. If nothing else...your are certainly sharpening your diagnostic skills....pitter patter...keep right at 'er!

 

[soccerdad]

I don't think it is all doom and gloom. Hang in there. If it runs sharp on the trailer at 3K, then it will likely run well in the water. Perhaps find another donor ski or even borrow an MPEM from someone. I have one for a 96 that would work, but the Canadian thing makes it a whole lot tougher. A GSX or XP MPEM will work also (with the matching key), but you will need to replace the harness as well I think. You only need the basics for the mpem to do its thing. power, good ground, dess connection, pickup connection, coil connection I think.

 

[GGuillot]

A GSX or XP MPEM will work also (with the matching key), but you will need to replace the harness as well I think.

The only thing different from what I've observed, is the DESS post connector, everything else plugs up. Going knee deep in my 97' GTX and 96' GSX doing the RESTO's this is what I discovered. The MPEM on the 97' is integral with the ignition/CDI, the 96' (XP and GSX) the CDI module is separate and is wired to the MPEM in the grey box.

 

[soccerdad]

You are correct. I would just test using a full gray box and the correct wring harness. But easier said then done if you don't have a spare ski sitting around..... actually, just buy a GSX and then restore it too. You will have lots of parts to swap back and forth for testing... That is what I did. And when you are done you will have the best of both worlds! and more gray hair...

 

[GGuillot]

You are correct. I would just test using a full gray box and the correct wring harness. But easier said then done if you don't have a spare ski sitting around..... actually, just buy a GSX and then restore it too. You will have lots of parts to swap back and forth for testing... That is what I did. And when you are done you will have the best of both worlds! and more gray hair...

Second on that, love my GSX, it's a nice compliment to the GTX.

 

[ToddinTO]

LOL, without the GTX running, I would have a hard time convincing my wife that I needed another to use as a donor! The back is already kinda crowded with the Utopia, a Starcraft travel trailer, utility trailer and now the Seadoo. As well, running GSXs, circa 96/97 in my area are about $2500, much more than just an MPEM from Westside.

Thanks Soccerdad for the mention of the MPEM, ya, the border thing makes it more difficult. I think I can borrow an Arieltek unit that would fit in the GTX, it is aftermarket, not the original Seadoo version but it should let me know if the MPEM is my issue or continue tracking down the issue to another component.

 

[ToddinTO]

OK, had some time to look at this again . . . . .

Reconnected the fuel return line as the small container I had to collect the overflow was filling as I cranked it, leading me to believe fuel delivery was not an issue.

Cleaned all the electrical connectors between the rear electrical box and MPEM with some contact cleaner, and gently used a round file used to clean welding tips.

Wanted to confirm the suspicion about the MPEM, connected the DVM between the ground and the lead from the pickup coil, resistance was 238 ohms this time, cranking the engine yielded AC voltage between 0.20 and 0.30, seemed to be good.

Connected a trouble light to the white wire, (which feeds the coil) at the MPEM and ground, cranked the engine and the light flickered dimly. Moved the trouble light to the back electrical box, cranked and again it flickered dimly, this was a welcome sight!

While DVM was connected to the red/purple wire AT the MPEM I cranked the engine, it had a solid 12.3 VDC while the engine was cranking, so the 12V low on the info center seems to be misleading . . .

Hooked the white wire back to the ignition coil, grounded the plugs, cranked the engine, but no spark. This indicates there must be an issue with the coil, right, just as GGuillot suggested?!?!

Pulled the caps off the wires and one was really loose! The dealer I had taken it too in the summer did state that another coil was tried with no change, I had not checked the caps since then. The other cap was tight, I clipped them both back 1/4 inch or so. Measured the resistance from wire to wire, it was 14.2K, measured the resistance on each boot, it was 4.7K and 4.8K. Checked the resistance on the primary side of the coil, it showed as 0 ohms.

Cranked it again, after boots were cleaned and reinstalled, very strange, I could see a spark on ONE plug, both were grounded with large clamps around the body of the plugs and the other end to the bolts on the exhaust manifold, so I know the ground was good.

Dug out the original coil that came with the ski, which I changed out in the spring, just for good measure. Decided to use the new plug wires that came with the new coil, I did not install them with the new coil as they were too short, and the original wires seemed OK (checked resistance on both while moving the wires around to make sure there were no breaks in them)

The new plug wires seemed much smaller diameter than the original ones, when inserted into the coil base, there was a gap round the wire, split some tubing slipped it over the wire and wedged it into the coil base. Checked the resistance from wire to wire, now it was 12.7K.

Put the boots back on, checked resistance again from cap to cap, 21K. Had to leave the top of the rear elec box case out of the base kinda sitting on the PTO guard to reach the plugs, made sure there were no shorts to ground anywhere.

Cranked it again, and had spark on both plugs this time!!!!

Reinstalled the plugs in the engine, cranked it for about 15 seconds with the choke on, then a backfire . . . cranked it again and it fired up, had to hold the choke on for about 5 seconds, otherwise it sounded like it was going to quit.

Let it run for about 30 seconds, idle was 2850.

Shut it off and reconnected the rectifier in the MPEM box, I had disconnected it during trouble shooting.

Couple of minutes later, it started right up again, no choke, voltage at the battery was fluctuating between 13.9 and 14.10 VDC, so rectifier is OK, right?

Shut it down, let it sit for another 5 mins or so, tried it again, it started immediately!

Will wait til the engine is stone cold again and see if I can start it with just the choke again.

This is the first time I have had it started without needing to prime it with some fuel in the cylinders!!!

I think I will go ahead and order a new coil/wire/cap set for it. In the meantime I will pick up some plug wire by the foot, continue to use the old coil/caps and new wire so I can put the rear box back together, and perhaps take it to the lake to see how it starts in the water.

Kinda frustrating that it seems that a brand new coil could be flaky leading to the intermittent spark. And that the dealer stated he had tried a different coil with no improvement.

One last question, I could not find a reference in the service manual, does it matter which side of the coil goes to which plug? I have kept note of which went where, but as both plugs seem to spark at the same time, is there a difference?

Thanks again to all who have offered their suggestions!!!!

 

[ToddinTO]

So as it turns out, there are no auto parts places near me where I can pick up some spark plug wire which are open on a Sunday afternoon, guess I will get some wire tomorrow . . . . .

However, over the course of the day, I attempted to start it from cold, leaving a few hours in between each attempt to make sure it was not warm from the last attempt.

Each time it started, in 5 or 10 seconds with the choke on, it would initially run at about 2500RPM, but after about 10 seconds running it was up to a steady 3000RPM. Is this the idea behind the recommendation in the owners manual to start it up in the ramp on the trailer before it goes in the water and run it for 10-20 seconds, once it has been started and a bit warmed up a bit, it should start immediately when it is in the water?

 

[GGuillot]

Is this the idea behind the recommendation in the owners manual to start it up in the ramp on the trailer before it goes in the water and run it for 10-20 seconds, once it has been started and a bit warmed up a bit, it should start immediately when it is in the water?

I start it for about 15-30 seconds just before I drive away from the house, then I don't attempt again until I'm off the trailer and in the water. Idling away from the dock I look over my shoulder to confirm the trickle out the little pisser by the rear hook.

Good deal you finally got it resolved and it runs, hopefully no issues on the water.

 

[soccerdad]

Fingers crossed. I do exactly the same. Start them at home and they start easily about 45 minutes later in the water. But you can fire for a few seconds on the trailer before you splash it. Have a great ride! You earned it.

 

[ToddinTO]

Finally!!!!

Had some nice weather in the Toronto area this weekend, took the GTX down to a boat launch on Lake Ontario.

Put the craft in the water WITHOUT starting it first, I was curious to know if it would start cold in the water. Cranked it for about 5-10 secs with the choke on and it fired right up. Idled at about 1450. The launch has a small harbor area, and I just idled around there for 5 mins, it took about a minute or so before water started to spout out of the telltail hole. It smoked quite a bit.

Reved it up to about 3000rpm and it responded well to throttle, small sputter now and again, but that went away at about 4000rpm.

Rode it for about 1/2 hour, various speeds, could not go over about 5k rpm as there were about 2 or 3 foot waves, was quick to respond to throttle, just a slight vibration/cavitation just before it would take off. Since I have not had the pump off yet, I think I will look at that next. Also, the speedometer does not work, neither analogue or digital, the pickup spins freely but just does not register.

Stopped and started it a few times on the water and it starts up just fine, no hesitation at all.

Looked in the hull when I got back to the launch and there was little to no water in the bilge, so I would say the carbon ring is OK as well.

 

[mikidymac]

Awesome! Congratulations on a job well done.

 

[ToddinTO]

Thanks for all your help, it has seemed like a long journey, but only about 3 months, but they were summer months, and without the Seadoo working . . . . .

Just for the benefit of someone else who has a similar issue, and jumps to the bottom of this long thread, here is a summary.....

1. bought a 97 GTX, had good compression and no spark,
2. changed out all the old grey tempo lines with ethanol tolerant lines,
3. replaced the fuel selector with new one,
4. replaced the beeper,
5. fixed the fuel sending unit,
6. put a new float in the sending unit,
7. pumped out all the old fuel from the tank, filled with new 91 octane gas,
8. rebuilt the carbs with genuine Mikuni kits, do not skimp on these, just end up redoing it later again (see the sticky posts),
9. put in new 80g springs in the carbs, not included in the kits, checked pop-off but with new springs and genuine kits they were right on without adjustment,
10. set the carbs to specs in service manual,
11. no spark condition was due to the magneto coming off the flywheel and sticking to the stator (confirmed after removal of front cover),
12. bought a used flywheel/magneto combo to avoid any timing issues,
13. bought a used stator/pickup coil,
14. cleaned out all the metal debris from the front flywheel compartment,
15. replaced the oil injector hoses while the oil pump and RV cover was off,
16. had new welch plugs welded on the exhaust manifold due to leak,
17. got the RV clearance back into spec by cleaning up the mounting faces on the rotary valve cover and the engine with 600 grit sandpaper,
18. verified RV timing while cover was off,
19. replaced ignition coil with new one, which turned out to be flaky (sparked intermittently),
20. GTX now starts from cold in about 5 seconds of cranking, idles at 2900-3000 out of water, 1400-1500 in water, has good hole shot, very little vibration

Thats it! Now on to the other items, checking the pump, getting the speedometer working, cleaning up the hull. I won't update this thread any longer as the original focus was getting the puppy running well and it seems that has been accomplished with the kind words of so many, thanks again!