Any problems going from a brass wear ring to a plastic?

[Triorieel]

1998 gtx limited.

I was planning to do my wear ring and install a new impeller tomorrow for a group ride on Sunday. (I hit 6900 rpm but only go 50mph, and I hear what I think is cavitation. especially at half plane and taking off)

It was pointed out to me I have the original brass wear ring installed.

Can I still just swap it out with the plastic one I already ordered?

Is there new hurdles I will be facing?

I read newer models have set screws, so I assume I don't...do I just use a bit of gasket sealant?

I was told to remove the washers behind the pump. But I read those are needed for brass pumps. Does a brass wear ring mean I have a brass pump?

 

[Triorieel]

I can't find evidence of a bronze or brass or copper wear ring on google. Making me doubt what I see. The only thing I see on google that is metal is stainless steel.


but...

 

[dieselndoo]

Remove the pump, then remove the impellor. Take a jigsaw and cut relief cuts 189* apart. Use flat blade screwdriver and pry old out.. You'll see 4 set screws around the pump, help securing ring within..install new ring and "tap" new holes for screws

 

[mikidymac]

There are no brass wear rings only plastic and stainless steel.
Make sure they are actually washers between the pump and hull and not shims. If they are thin shims don't move them as they are part of the engine alignment process. If they are standard stainless washers they shouldn't be there.

 

[Triorieel]

There are no brass wear rings only plastic and stainless steel.

The next post will show this one isn't stainless or plastic.

 

[Triorieel]

This is seeing the play in the bearing. I assume I need new bearings?
[video=youtube_share;OfWk_hGyfvc]https://youtu.be/OfWk_hGyfvc[/video]

This is the removal of the wear ring. I can't find any set screws or holes for them. Do I just use gasket maker?
[video=youtube_share;xguwKEaHDi4]https://youtu.be/xguwKEaHDi4[/video]

 

[mikidymac]

I would contact WFO It sounds like he is one of the few that has seen this unicorn of a pump.

 

[Triorieel]

I'm not seeing much difference between the plastic and the brass/bronze wear ring with tolerances on the new impeller.

Is the impeller supposed to be able to just be lifted almost entirely out without unscrewing anything?
[video=youtube_share;4t9MwBNYrAA]https://youtu.be/4t9MwBNYrAA[/video]

 

[wfo speedracer]

No that pump is toast

 

[Triorieel]

Thats not good. Ill dig it further apart and see if its something that can be welded.

Edit: Sad thing is, this pump sounded better then the other 3 machines....

 

[mikidymac]

The impeller doesn't look correct either, almost like someone ground a bunch off the leading edge.

 

[Triorieel]

Time for tear down

Pulled the drain...nothing came out. :willy_nilly:

And now the pictures...

First washer thing


Second washer thing


Both washer things


No washers


The other side


Impeller side needles


Shaft with cone side needles (The needles still spin easily)


The cone. Is it supposed to look like this? :facepalm: (sarcastic)

Some more cone pron

and some more


The parts. I seem to be missing that big washer and that flat needle ring.



I was taking this apart because the seadoo is new to me and I noticed some cavitation. So I decided to take it apart, inspect, new oil, new wear ring and install new impeller (st-cd 15/20). Then keeping the old impeller as an emergency repair as impellers are almost twice the price locally, and 2+ weeks from afar. Wasn't expecting the insides to be what they are.

My non-expert analysis:
I think the pump itself is fine as the needle bearing housings are still nice and tight fitting. I was expecting needle housings missing and side wall destroyed after wfo's comment made me think deeper.

I definitely need some parts replaced.
1) Those washer things maybe bad; definitely not good, but maybe ok?.
2)My cone's insides are a mess so I probably need one of those cone assemblies I couldn't find (the 98 gtx ltd seems to get forgotten quite often).
3)I think the shaft is a bit rough but might be doable?
4)I don't know where that flat needle part goes and makes me wonder if something else is missing. I'm not sure where that new big metal washer goes as well (I assume next to the flat needle assembly I don't have the old one).

Any new thoughts with the tear down?

 

[Triorieel]

Looking at the parts diagram, my setup doesn't match.

My setup is different with those washer thingy's. The setup in the parts diagram shows the shaft acting as one of those washers. I on the other hand have a shaft without the washer head that relies on the extra washer.
That is not good, as that is the washer that stops if from sliding forward...which I showed in one of the videos mine is failing.

That shaft is expensive to replace for a silly thing...maybe I should get an extra washer and weld to my current shaft?

Edit:
Ya...can't even find a replacement shaft. I wonder if other shafts (ie. the 99 gtx ltd) could work.

 

[Triorieel]

The impeller doesn't look correct either, almost like someone ground a bunch off the leading edge.

Ya... I don't know whats going on.

Parts diagram says it is supposed to be 271000932 or newer 271000920.
Mine is showing as 271000786. Which google results say 1998 gtx ltd.


With pump 271000873 where parts diagram is showing 271000936 or newer 271001050


It's looking like the parts diagrams doesn't know my version of the 1998 gtx limited.

I think you are correct at calling this the unicorn pump.

 

[tobytd]

Quick note : washers between pump & pump support DO go there. 1998 models only, item #69 on parts break down

 

[Triorieel]

Quick note : washers between pump & pump support DO go there 1989 models only item #69 on parts break down

Thanks for catching that. I was to afraid of removing it as suggested by someone else.

At this point, I'm trying to figure out what to do about my impeller shaft. Have you had your apart yet? Is it the same as mine? I'm trying to figure out what to put on the other side of the thrust bearing. I'm contemplating picking up an extra thrust washer and welding it to my impeller shaft.

 

[Mekanix]

Closer inspection of the pics says you need the shaft as well. Those washers are not washers . Well one is. The other one is/ was part of the shaft.

Installing the bearings a and seal are easy, That wear ring is weird, Never seen one like that. It almost seems custom made.

 

[Triorieel]

Closer inspection of the pics says you need the shaft as well. Those washers are not washers . Well one is. The other one is/ was part of the shaft.

That is the part that is getting me stumped. It didn't break off. It has a ridge it sits in on the shaft. It is also bronze/brass not steel like the shaft. I would put it back, but it doesn't have a flat surface for the thrust bearing to roll on (it angles in at the center). I didn't have an old thrust bearing, so I don't know how it originally works. I could order a new shaft, but I don't know if it will work in this unique pump.

 

[Triorieel]

I think before I do anything, I will pull it's sister out of the water and compare. Although they are are both 98 gtx ltd, I already know its different by the pto driveshaft (ones a 5837 and the other is a 5842). I should also inspect it's condition because it is new to me as well.

This will let me know if the impeller shafts are interchangeable as well as if I decide to weld something up with my shaft, I will have a blueprint to mimic. If the impeller shaft turns out to be the same, then hopefully it is in a better condition and I can see how it does what it does.

 

[Mekanix]

I have a feeling its a normal pump where the shaft wore to the point of not being recognizable.


Have a look at this:

http://www.seadoopartshouse.com/oemparts/a/sea/500d8acbf870020908258625/propulsion-system

 

[tobytd]

I would put in a new shaft, doesn't look good where seal rides. Look at parts diagram, thrust bearing rides on the shaft itself on one side and the washer on the other

 

[mikidymac]

None of the pump diagrams show a pump shaft like yours as they all have the large builtin washer for the thrust bearings. So every part of that pump needs to be replaced and seeing the damage I wouldn't trust the pump bore to be true anymore either.

Also looking at the diagrams the GTX does not show the brass wear ring like yours. The only one that shows it is the 1997.5 GSX, AKA: Gray Ghost.

If it were mine I would get the newer "normal" pump from Minnetonka4me and be done with it.

 

[Triorieel]

I ordered a shaft replacement and cone from someone ripping apart a 98 xp in alberta. Should be here hopefully early next week. The needle housing still have a nice snug fit into the pump, otherwise I would have looked into replacing the whole thing. Especially since that cone only came in 98 xp and 98 gtx ltd. I also put my name on a proper pump rebuild kit from a local marina that had it in stock. 2 seperate places sold me the wrong pump rebuild kit :facepalm:

Right now the biggest annoyance is.... 4 seadoo's, 0 in water.

 

[Triorieel]

progress

I installed the new st-cd 15/20 replacing the old original 13/21 pitch. I wonder if these numbers are actually tested.

Keeping in mind, my old pump setup didn't have a thrust bearing, no oil, and the impeller was flopping around in and out and sideways....I was kind of expecting a little bit of enhancement with the new setup.

Before: 54mph@6900rpm, Now 58mph@6500rpm with full tank of gas. The speeds listed is rated by seadoo speedometer (58mph seadoo =54mph gps)

I did not expect such a huge hit on the rpm's(I was guessing I was going to drop to 6700-6800). Is 6500rpm where this machine should be or should I be trying to fight for some more rpm's? (As a reminder, this machine is 142psi in both cylinders)