Another 1997 XP starting saga

[Coopnjaxdad]

Well, my 1997 XP gave all the typical starting problems and went through all the normal steps to remedy. Ski has new AGM battery, new starter, new ground cable, cleaned ground connection in coil box but still no consistent starting.

Here is where it gets interesting. With plugs out ski turns over fine. Nothing strange there. When I lift towel cover head there is a ton of oil coming out of PTO cylinder. If I get most of the oil blown out and put plugs back in, the ski will turn over like normal for two to three 5 second starter runs. Then goes back to just clunking. If I pull plugs she turns over and blows a whole bunch more oil out of the PTO cylinder. I can repeat this scenario at will.

So my question is what's with all the oil in the PTO cylinder and do you all think that it's causing the no spin condition or is it just an unfortunate coincidence?

Thanks in advance for the thoughts!


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[Coastiejoe]

I believe the oil is coming in past a defective crank seal. But,,, it is not normally to that extreme. What normally happens is, if it sits over winter or a month in some cases, the seeps past it and fills the cylinders up. Solved by installing a shut-off valve and turning the oil tank off while it sits.

It sounds like in your case it leaks MUCH more than that..

I would suggest a compression test as well. THat may help us help you.

 

[Coopnjaxdad]

Thanks for the reply, my comp gage is at a friends place so I can't run the check today. I can however say the top end was new mid last season.

How would I verify the bad crank seal?

Thanks again!


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[soccerdad]

is it turning over with the plugs in and just not starting? Has it run this year? It just could be full of oil on the PTO side and you just have to get it all out. Keep cranking it in short bursts until the towel is clean. Then put the plugs in with a little prime and see if it starts.

 

[Coopnjaxdad]

Soccerdad, after I blow all the oil out it will crank a few times and then go back to clunking. Then I can repeat the process.

It has not run yet this year.

Thanks!


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[Coastiejoe]

Basically, if you are getting oil into the cylinders while it sits, the seal is bad. The sad part is, the seal is cheap and in many cases it will NOT fix the issue. You must pull the engine to do the change. And, the seal normally wears the cranks. So a new seal does not fix the issue.

Most install a shutoff valve on the line from the tank to the engine.

For test reasons, clamp the line closed and see if the oil issue stops. If so, you know what the issue is.

 

[Coopnjaxdad]

Would it be both cylinders if the seal were bad, or does it typically show more in one then the other?


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[Strizzo]

Would it be both cylinders if the seal were bad, or does it typically show more in one then the other?


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Not necessarily. There are two seals, one on each side of the rotary shaft cavity. If only the one on the pto side is leaking, it will only flood out the pto cylinder.

Try opening the throttle when cranking with the plugs out, this will enhance the pumping effect of the motor and pull oil out of the case if there is still any in there.

 

[Coopnjaxdad]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

So I cranked it with throttle open some until oil was gone in cylinder. I leveled the ski in the trailer so the bow wasn't elevated(not sure why I felt the need to do that) and got it started. It smoked like crazy for 5 minutes or so running on the hose. I shut it down pulled plugs cleaned them. I reinstalled and she fired right back up. Ran on the hose and eventually the smoke level returned to normal.


I pulled the plugs this morning and bumped it over and didn't see the oil that I saw yesterday. So perhaps I blew out/burned off what had accumulated.

I'm going to pull some compression number tonight and keep and eye on that PTO cylinder.


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[soccerdad]

Awsome news! It likely just seeped in during the winter. If it seems to be OK for periods of a week or two, you should be fine. If it seeps in too much, you can put a shut off valve to the RV chamber oil. I you do this MAKE SURE YOU OPEN IT when running. I heard that some actually connect their DESS key to the valve to remind them.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Good news is, you got it running,,, Bad news is, I would be shocked if your Carbon Seal isn't destroyed. Hose Running is NOT designed to cool the engine per say. It is to FLUSH the cooling system. As such, the water runs backwards to further help push any debris out of the cooling lines. Yes, the water does cool the engine but only minimaally. The carbon seal is cooled by the water the ski is sitting in. When on the hose it is not cooled at all. When running on a hose you should MAX the running time at 2 mnutes. And most feel that is too much time...

 

[manolocross]

I always keep a spray bottle with soapy water to spray on carbon seal for extended running on hose... 2 min max with using spray bottle...


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[soccerdad]

So I have wondered, how do you know if it is fried? Does it wear completely away or is it glazed or fractured? I have seen posts on using lapping compound to bring it back. How bad is bad? Any visuals out there on good vs bad, or do you just put it in the lake and look for leaks and cavitation? I know it gets hot without being in water, but it is carbon so high temp should not be a huge issue. Does it kill the stainless ring? This may be useful information to those of us that have never seen a fried carbon seal.

 

[soccerdad]

Perhaps my question above is a little off topic. Please ignore here and I am starting a new thread. Thanks.

 

[Coopnjaxdad]

Inspected carbon seal last night and the surface was as smooth as when I installed it last summer with my driveline rebuild kit. I won't know for sure until I water test it this week. I'll update. Thanks for the heads up and idea with the soapy water.

Compression numbers are good by the way.




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