97 GTX - PTO Cylinder DNF'd Memorial Weekend

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MexicoJoe

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Hola amigos, long time no talk. It's been about 8 months since my last posts about my 97 GTX. I only got the ski out a few times after solving my MPEM issue that I was dealing with at the end of last summer. I purchased the Arieltek MPEM. Without diluting this new thread with old information I'll post the links below to last summer's MPEM saga. I think the new MPEM has 3 rides on it now and this last one wasn't much of a show.

Last summer's MPEM saga:
https://www.seadooforum.com/threads/starter-engages-when-battery-is-connected-97-gtx.102564/
More detailed information regarding MPEM Timing adjustment:
https://www.seadooforum.com/threads...-suggestion-matt-braley-or-other-pros.103596/
So after I got the timing correction dialed in on the new Arieltek MPEM I had planned to go fishing in the Sea of Cortez, Mexico in October. It ended up being an absolutely EPIC day of fishing the Sea of Cortez out of my home away from home Cholla Bay, Rocky Point, Sonora, Mexico. Caught a TON of Corvina (Sea Trout) and cruised with a pod of dolphins for 20 minutes that had to have been in the thousands. Instagram storyline Cholla Bay for videos of said POD.

Rocky Point (Puerto Penasco)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/P...9796169c75fb3!8m2!3d31.3268064!4d-113.5311699
Cholla Bay, Rocky Point, Sonora
https://www.google.com/maps/place/L...daddd09e7f67a!8m2!3d31.3427517!4d-113.6368275
InstaGram @j4roe Storyline CHOLLA BAY!
https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/18048930532127527/?hl=en



 
Now, here's where the story gets interesting! That October trip went well, got back to Phoenix and cleaned outside/inside hull, flushed intake as always datta datta datta... Fast forward to this weekend. Initially, the GF and I weren't going to take the ski out because A. I hadn't taken the cover off since October and B. Memorial Weekend in Phoenix at the lake is a nightmare. Normally we're in Mexico for Memorial Weekend but Mexico is closed right now LOL. Sooooooo, we decided to try and go. I popped the top and proceed to go over things and see if she starts. She starts right up but I see gas spewing out of the PTO carb. Shut down. Take the airbox off to have a better look. Restart, pouring gas out of the PTO carb on the filter side, immediately turn off. Proceed to take the PTO carb off. Now I have it off and I put in on the bench to work on. Flip it over to the filter side of the PTO carb and sure enough there's only 3 screws holding the plate on. Coincidentally the screw that was missing would be the bottom corner in the orientation the carb is installed in. So naturally, gravity and that corner was missing the screw. Then, it hit me. I had been working on a truck project the last few months and at some point I had seen a phillips head screw that looked identical to one that would be on the Seadoo. I even said to myself that's weird, that looks like a screw from my Seadoo. Anyways, so Saturday, I'm looking through stuff trying to remember where I had seen this screw. Sure enough, it was in a bag I use for tools and whatnot to take on the ski. This will be the first year in the 3 that I've owned this GTX that it has sat for this long. Normally this thing gets parked in December and comes back out in March.... this year my last ride was October and because of Covid I never even thought about getting it out and getting it ready for the summer. In saying that, because the ski sat for 7 months instead of 3 I must have forgot details from that day in Mexico. The fact that the carb screw is in my jet ski tool bag is a tell. I started thinking back about that day and do remember that I smelled gas all day and the other thing that I remembered was that the HIGH TEMP warning kept going off... I had originally attributed that to the new MPEM needing reset. Similar to how the info center always says MAINTENANCE... The motor never felt hot to the touch. Just like it always had felt. Water temp in the Sea of Cortez in October is pry 78-80 degrees. Motor felt strong as it has always felt that day. Rough estimate I know for a fact that I went at least 18 miles that day but a lot of trolling around the same spot I put the total distance traveled that day around 25 miles.

My thinking: It's really weird that I can't remember but I bet that I found the carb screw in the bottom of the jet ski cleaning it out after my trip and before I put it away for the season.

Fast Forward Sunday, Memorial day weekend.

Got said screw back in to the carb. Blue lock tight all of them on both carbs. Got everything back together. Ski fires right up on trailer, GOOD TO GO! Get to the lake, surprised it wasn't as mad as we thought it would be, launch ski. Ski sounds great, throttle response there. I back up, and then forward to a spot to anchor while GF goes to park truck and trailer. She gets back to the dock so I pull anchor and start ski to pick her up. This was the first sign. Ski kind of struggled a little to start but then after it started it was idling a little lower than the normal 1500 it's usually at. GF gets on we idle away. While under idle and we're getting situated putting things in the hood the ski dies. Now it's really not wanting to start and sounds weird. To me right away I felt we had pry lost compression but being the stubborn asshole that I am I convinced myself and my girlfriend the low idle and difficulty starting would pan out! LOLOLOL So it finally starts and we both agree that we should stay fairly close to the ramp we used to make sure the ski is ok before we venture out. Normally where we go from where we launch is 9 miles away. I get out of the NO WAKE and the boat just felt different but it was still running.... we get further away than intended because if you didn't read above IM STUBBORN AF. We get to another cove and shortly after letting off of the throttle returning to idle the boat went below 1500 and shut off. I knew we'd officially lost a cylinder at that point. My GF was pissed because she knew I knew what is was before I convinced her that we just need to "warm up" the motor LOLOLOL. The longest story a little shorter, we had to have TOWBOAT US tow us back to the dock for a minimum charge of $200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Adding insult to injury. Jesus. Then the guy tells us that it's just $85 a year anywhere in the US up to 20 miles off shore in coastal areas... so good to know for the future but at that moment, what a kick in the nuts!

We get home and I put the compression tester on there. 140 mag, 60 PTO. Pretty bummed out about it. I bought this boat 3 years ago for $1k with trailer because it wasn't running. It wasn't seized and had good compression so I trusted my judgement and it has proven to be one of the best purchases I've ever made. I've done all of my own work to it and it has given me 10 + rides per year for 2.5 years... It has about 8 Sea of Cortez trips and at least 5 lake trips a summer so this boat possibly got 30 more rides out of it after I purchased. I can't complain! I definitely a million times over got my money's worth out of this boat. The problem now is that, it's really not worth anything to me not running. I'd hate to sell as is and not get any money out of it. I really don't want to walk away from this boat PERIOD. It was never an investment for me. I never planned to fix and flip. This boats sole purpose is to get me on the water to FISH. Being handicap I needed a boat or ski for FISHING. The money made this a no brainer and I have gotten immense fulfillment out of it. One day in the near future we would like to upgrade to a boat. I don't see that happening for a year or two so in the meanwhile I would still like this to be running. Either for my enjoyment or for some re-sale value when it's time to get a boat. If I had to guess, I pry have about $1400 total investment in this boat right now which includes all maintenance that I've completed over the 3 years. Even at another $600 for a full engine rebuild and total investment is still only 2k give or take. I feel with the trailer in the Phoenix market and the quality of my boat I could get $2200 all day everyday. $2800 on the gouge.

So here's the million dollar question for you fine folks, can I get away with just a TOP END? I have never had oiling problems. Seadoo pump has always been properly aligned and working. Before I ever rode this ski after purchase I installed clear oil injection lines for the peace of mind of being able to see the red Seadoo oil in the line. I have NEVER had air bubbles in the line. BOTH larger feed and return/expansion line have NEVER leaked and crankcase has NEVER leaked. Internally, obviously we can't know with any type of certainty but I've never had oil in the cylinder or rotary valve leaking, any abnormal amount of smoke on start up or after the ski has "cleared" out after start up. I have not tried to look down inside the chamber but when I removed BOTH spark plugs I was surprised at how well they looked. The combustion has definitely been burning clean. Not fat at all. I don't see any metal on either plug.

I know most are likely to suggest a full rebuild. I'm wondering more about the thought process that drives a decision whether it's full rebuild or just top end. To me, it is possible that the bottom end didin't suffer any further damage. If I had to guess, I ran the ski the entire day in Mexico back in October with a severely leaking PTO carb IE LEAN CONDITION in PTO cylinder creating HIGH HEAT, which is why I kept getting high heat warning. Not completely melting the piston but heating up the cylinder enough to create a gap between piston and cylinder wall. Ring damage???? If this engine failure had more to do with oiling than I would be more inclined to immediately jump on the full rebuild wagon. If there's even a 50/50 chance that a top end gets me another summer or two of use out of this ski then that's the route I'm pry going to go with. I like probabilities. I'll take the coin flip that a $250 top end kit gets me another summer of use... Just kind of want to know what others think. Money is a factor. Which is why this is even a question.

Hopefully I made this interesting enough. I like to write so you'll need to have a strong reading desire to get through some of my posts.

CHEERS TO BRAINSTORMING!!! Tell me what you think!
 
Seriously.

Pull the bad cylinder off and see how bad it is scored or if it just needs a hone to clean it up. If it needs to get bored figure out what the next size piston is available, buy one and have the cylinder bored to the piston. Make sure the rave valve clearance is addressed if you bore it. Unless there are are chunks missing anywhere off the piston the crank is probably safe.

Take that carb apart and look through it a second time then put it together all the way this time. Confirm that it was the carb that took the piston out though.
 
Seriously.

Pull the bad cylinder off and see how bad it is scored or if it just needs a hone to clean it up. If it needs to get bored figure out what the next size piston is available, buy one and have the cylinder bored to the piston. Make sure the rave valve clearance is addressed if you bore it. Unless there are are chunks missing anywhere off the piston the crank is probably safe.

Take that carb apart and look through it a second time then put it together all the way this time. Confirm that it was the carb that took the piston out though.

This is what I needed to hear... Will do exactly this. I wasn't making a strong determination until after it's apart but this is what I'm thinking. Thanks brother!
 
BUMP!!! Hurt PTO cylinder with PICS!













To me this doesn't look bad at all. Pretty sure I'm throwing a top end in this and JUST GONNA SEND IT!

Does this look like HONE or BORE???? Rather keep it stock 82mm so I don't have to shave the rave valve. Looks like there may be some little detonation marks on the bottom of the sleep near one of the ports.
 
Bore, send the cylinders and RAVE's off to Group K in Ft. Mohave AZ. and have new pistons fitted.

Probably ran lean with that carb screw missing. You can see that piston is black from being lean and not showing much piston wash.
 
Bore, send the cylinders and RAVE's off to Group K in Ft. Mohave AZ. and have new pistons fitted.

Probably ran lean with that carb screw missing. You can see that piston is black from being lean and not showing much piston wash.

Obviously the machine shop would pry know but are we talking just up to the next size piston? I think that is a .25mm increase... from 82mm to 82.25mm. Or would I need to go bigger?
 
BUMP!!!!

Damn, finally getting around to doing this top end job and having a really difficult time finding a machine shop that can do these jugs. Hard to believe in the 5th largest city in America I can't find a shop to machine these jugs. Almost seems impossible! I got everything pulled apart and confirmed they are stock bore. The scaring on the MAG piston is pretty bad. No detonation marks on top. PTO piston looks great. Detonation marks on top though and I did find the bottom ring had broken.

The day we lost the cylinder right after putting it in the water and motoring to the dock to wait for GF to park truck and come back down I did find the oil line to that cylinder had come off at the pump if I hadn't already mentioned that. I'm guessing the heat and subsequent scaring on MAG piston/sleeve is due to no oil for 5 minutes and the detonation marks on the PTO cylinder lead me to believe that cylinder is running a little more lean than the MAG cylinder which I read is pretty normal or at least common. The carb that was leaking was the PTO cylinder so that makes sense. I'm going to replace those little brass oil line clips on the ends of the line at the pump with mini zip ties to insure they never come off again. Never had one come off previously but I was doing work right in that area the day before we went. I'm thinking I knocked it off putting the pipe back in and didn't see it. That means engine ran on trailer for a minute or so and then 5-10 minutes at the lake with no injection oil in the MAG cylinder. Kind of pissed about that. Seems this engine failure happened because of that and not age.


This is pry a long shot but can anyone recommend a machine shop in the greater Phoenix, AZ area?

Thanks!!!
 
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