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1997 GTX 6K RPM

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etemplet

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I have low RPM on a 1997 GTX. I bought a used engine took it apart a bit did some checks and after a bit of work it all looked good to me. :) I checked the carbs, they looked good so I didn't rebuild them. I set the pop-off which wasn't bad. Ski ran great but only 6000 RPM. Held it wide open for a while that's all I got 40mph. :)

This past weekend I opened the high speeds 3/4 turn and took it out. Same 6K RPM but as I rode the RPM came up slightly No quickly but s l o w l y. 6200 then 6400 at times. Strange. I pulled the raves which were dirty but not sticking bad. I pulled the carbs as disassembled and didn't find anything I'd rebuild over. Everything was clear and clean for the most part. I did find some particles of dirt inside the carb so I'll clean that up. I'm gonna do a full carb rebuild with needle and seat replacement.

I noticed the fuel was dark and I don't remember removing the fuel tank on this ski. I'm heading upstream for issues. I may remove the fuel tank or at least pump it out and put some completely fresh fuel in there. Gonna pull a vacuum on the system and all that I'm pretty sure I checked the water control valve but I'll pull it again and look closely. No reason for the ski to run as well as it does and not develop full power.1996 GTX Striped Seat (1).JPG
 
OK so... the dark fuel was probably because there was some premix in there but it is no doubt old.

As mentioned I disassembled the carbs and didn't find any issues but.... I did a full rebuild so that better not be a problem going forward.

I pulled the fuel tank, replaced the baffle with one that had a working fuel sending unit. Got some dirt out of the system. I ended up replacing the fuel selector with a new OEM. I did find a leaking hose on the fuel regulator. I always pressure these systems up to make sure everything holds.

I found the vent hose connection in the baffle was swapped with the return which I am not sure would be a problem.

I disassembled the Water Control Valve and I thought it might be the problem. Looks like it is functioning as I compared it with another. I may swap it just to eliminated any reinstalled issues.

Other than this.... I can't think of anything that would cause loss of power. Engine compression is good 140+. Engine idles fine and starts well in the water when hot. Engine is also lined up properly with a good jet pump. I went into the mag area before installing the engine to make sure that was clean and spiffy. So.... we'll see how it goes..
 
I assume when you re-assembled the engine you checked your "squish" clearances.....I personally have no direct experience with doing this but apparently....tiny dimensional differences in the cylinder heads can really affect the engine performance characteristics significantly....NOT saying this is the problem...just tossing out the idea.
 
Some good reading from good old Group K....

Base Gasket Thickness - "Jon's Story" -- One of our early test boats was an XP that was to be raced in region one offshore. We shipped the kit to the owner, who had it assembled at a local shop. After the break-in, the test rider reported a little better top end, along with average bottom end power. We were concerned because all our other test riders had reported big increases in bottom end as well as peak rpm. After a few unsuccessful attempts to resolve the problem with carb tuning, he came to our shop with the machine. After a quick test ride, we found this XP to have mediocre acceleration and a 6900 rpm peak (that's 150 rpm short of the norm). Back at the shop we checked out every possible problem. Besides the indicated compression being just a little low, the only other inconsistency was that the squish clearance seemed to be about .010" (.25mm) too thick. At the time, we didn't think this was the problem...but it was the only thing we saw that we could "fix". We removed the .024" (6 hole) base gasket and replaced it with a .016" (4 hole) base gasket. The next morning we gave the boat a short break-in...then gassed it. The difference was unbelievable. The boat pulled viciously up to 7040 rpm... just like all our other test boats. No one was more shocked than us, that .008" of base gasket thickness could turn a weakling into rocket. After this experience, we specified for our assembly instructions that a .038" - .042" squish clearance must be maintained on all Group K modified top ends. Since then, we have not experienced this problem again. (Note : This XP won the 90 minute 1200 pro overall at the Havasu Global Offshore Finals)

Precision Top End Assembly of the Laydown Rave Motors -- Squish clearance, the distance between the piston crown and cylinder head at top dead center, is an important specification that is minded by the Rotax factory as well as all high performance engine builders. The Sea Doo manual offers a fairly wide tolerance for squish clearances, however most engine builders prefer closer clearances to help stave off detonation. Most builders measure the squish clearance by sticking a piece of solder through the spark plug hole toward the outside edge of the bore...then momentarily touching the start button so the piston makes several strikes at the solder. This allows the solder to be crushed to the exact thickness that shows the "squish clearance". At Group K we make a point to take these "squish clearance " measurements over both ends of the wrist pin. This minimizes the piston's ability to "rock" and show an inaccurately large clearance. We also take these measurements over both ends of the wrist pin, on both cylinders, to assure uniform clearances. In a perfect world, all four squish measurement will be within .002" - ,003". Unfortunately, we have been observing everything but uniform clearances. This is a matter we do not take lightly, since accurate squish clearance is the only way to assure correct deck height setup (a function of the base gasket thickness).
Immediately, we though that the variations were caused by incorrectly cut squish bands on the cylinder head...not so. The bands had a uniform depth and perfect center to center location. We then suspected variations in the locations of the cylinder mounting holes in the crankcases, but they also measured perfectly. In the end, we found two items that caused the variations. The first was that the distance between the two cylinder bores can vary greatly, depending on the assembly procedure. That is, there can be almost 1 mm variation in the center to center distance of the bore diameters based solely on the random location during assembly. Secondly, the cylinder head itself has a great deal of movement leeway (both left to right, and forward to back). All these variations of fit take place because the cylinders and cylinder head are not located to one another with "dowel locating pins" (as most Kawasaki engines are). The absence of these locating pins allows for alot of movement leeway, of both the cylinders and the cylinder head. That results in broad variations in squish clearance measurements. Installing dowel pins is a questionably wise solution because of the great risk that the exhaust manifold faces would not be perfectly parallel (that would cause bore distortion when the exhaust manifold is torqued on).
For now, our best solution is to recommend a "Precision Assembly Procedure" that will make for minimum variations in squish measurements.
Our procedure is based on the following information. The cylinder base bolt patterns in the cases are located 132mm (5.196") apart. The standard bore diameters of the cylinders are 82.0 - 82.08 mm (3.228"- 3.231"). This means that the inner distance between the two bores of the torqued on cylinders should be between 49.91 - 49.98 mm (1.965" - 1.968") These last measurements can be taken quickly and easily with a set of dial calipers after the cylinders have been torqued on. In most cases, we have found that you can hit this spec range if you install the cylinders as close together as possible. It bears noting that we have seen engines where the water jackets of the cylinders touched before we could reach this specification range. We literally needed to belt sand some material off the aluminum cylinder casting to get the correct spec. Cylinders like this are certainly the exception (not the rule), but they do exist.
Once the cylinders are installed with the acceptable center to center distance, it becomes apparent that the cylinder head itself can move about 2mm (.080" in any direction over the tops of the bores. This location will also have a profound effect on squish clearance measurements. We got out best results by matching the edge of the head casting, all the way around, as closely as possible to the edges of the cylinder castings. While this doesn't sound very precise, it works surprisingly well. After torquing on the head, you can take your four squish clearance measurements to determine if the head needs to be moved slightly one way or the other...it's not really as tough as it sounds.
Does everyone one who assembles a Rave top end "have" to go through this whole procedure...not necessarily. However we strongly recommend this procedure to anyone preparing a high output Laydown Rave motor. If you find a wide variation in the squish clearances of your freshly assembled engine...it could certainly avert some problems before they get started.
 
Simple ideas that could have been over looked. Have you checked to make sure linkage is all working correctly? Are the butterflies opening all the way? Do you have the correct spark plugs installed with proper gap? Burned ends of plug wires can cause loss of top RPMs. Have the wires been trimmed back?

I know you’ve been around the forum for a long while so you’ve probably got all this, but since it hadn’t been mentioned yet I wanted to throw it out there just in case your memory is getting like mine. LOL
 
We'll find out shortly... this ski is almost ready to get wet. The ROAR of the raves opening just ain't happening. :D :D
 
I have had my RAVEs not want to slide open on two occasions. Once when it was brand new just after break-in when I was finally able to go full throttle . It took hitting the throttle while going over waves to get them to open. After a little wear and lube they started working flawless. Then when I replaced them (new stems housing springs and bellows. Same experience. Only this time I was a little wiser. Lube the stems on valves with XPS lube liberally and turn the red caps out some until they wear in a little.
 
I just replaced the o-rings on my rave stems and on the test ride I noticed a similar problem where my rpm's would lock in around 6100 and then slowly climb. It has never done this before and the only 2 things I changed from the previous ride was the o-rings and riding style. Seeing the reply about oil on the stems makes me wonder if that might be the cause of my lag.

Not wanting to hyjack here.

Just a question for all you 787 riders. What rpm's do you see at wide open? I was running at 6850, things seem to have dropped a couple hundred recently to 6600 ish.
 
Just a question for all you 787 riders. What rpm's do you see at wide open? I was running at 6850, things seem to have dropped a couple hundred recently to 6600 ish.

If the tachs are to be believed my two GTXs (1996/1997) don't see 6800 very often. The 2001 GTX RFI I'm working on is getting 6850.

The real check is mph on the GPS for me. Even though RPM has dropped speed is the same and my wife's GTX is still faster than mine. LOL I'm eyeing the 1998 GTX Limited across the yard as I type this.... MUhaahaahaa !!
 
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After much tweaking and "get ready" this girl is ready to rock. The finishing touches always take longer but I call it TWEAKIN. It's what makes a ski personal. I pulled the gauges out and did the INFO gauge repair using the polarized film. I even took the tach apart to remove the water. That gauge stuff wasn't fun but was successful and even the fuel gauge is kickin. I you guys remember I paid a guy on Ebay to repair the fuel gauge. I found a beeper I could use and got that working as well. Not a bad looking ski !!GTX Info gauge repair (1).JPEGGTX Info gauge repair (3).JPEGGTX Info gauge repair (2).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (1).JPEG
 
Yup this one is ready for the water. Nice lookin ski. Hope all my work this week got that RPM back. GTX Stripe 1997 Complete (2).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (3).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (5).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (6).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (3).JPEGGTX Stripe 1997 Complete (4).JPEG
 
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Right on! Look'n good my friend.

Thanks for the rpm info. I forgot about a change to my water control valve that also effected my rpm's. Rode it last night and spent a while tweaking the red cap on the valve, dialed back in to 5850 again, 52.8 on gps.
 
Ha.... it floods here in a matter of minutes. When we went to St. Augustine last week, it was the same there. Gotta love the south. :D I've had people say with regard to going out on the jet skis. "I might rain." I say... yea so. Only if it is beaming down do I mind otherwise I don't care. I rode motorcycles in the rain for years. I had to get home from work.
 
Well I got a marginal improvement in RPM on the 97 GTX but still not where it should be. GPS MPH was 45. 6350 on the RPM. Power comes on better but still not getting the RPMs. I spent a lot of time with the Water Control Valve. I know I'm getting fuel. I didn't think it was the carbs but I rebuilt them anyway. I changed the exhaust rubber hose just to be sure it wasn't that. The engine isn't misfiring it runs great and sound good too. Compression is about 143 and 145. I'm wondering if I need to pull the prop and have a look BUT.... I replaced the wear ring about 2 hours run time ago. I'm not sure I looked at the numbers. I'll have to see if I can get in there with my super nifty phone camera bore scope.

Before rebuilding the carbs I opened the high speeds 1/2 turn and it didn't make a noticeable difference.

Note prior to running the ski for the first time a month ago... I disassembled the carbs and checked them and tested the pop off. They were clean and looked good. I can't get them any better than they are... they look great. Whole fuel system is great.
 
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Almost spot on. I took the water control valve apart and compared to 3 other valves... spent 1/2 tweaking. I wasn't too encouraged when I got out on the water a was warming up the ski. I accelerated to about 5K.... transition was good. I let is sit there then increased to 6K and I still had more throttle. Fancy that. 6500RPM. So.... all the tweaking inched me up to acceptable performance for the ski. My personal skis don't have much more than that. I noticed the springs were different on the water control valves. So this girl is dun done.... ready. :D
 
Correct, seadoo had a 40mm spring and a 50mm spring for the valves and some of them even have shim washers even though they could just adjust the cap to account for the shim. So once again the WCV is a mystery as to when where and how seadoo tuned them. The only one that might know was Bill O'neill who has sadly passed away.
 
Does the valve simply close and stay closed or does it throttle? Makes me wonder if it is bouncing on the edge when it should be closing tightly. I can see now I'm gonna make some test rigs in the near future. :)
 
From my understanding, as back pressure in the exhaust system increases as you give it throttle the valve opens to let water out of the exhaust pipe. This allows the exhaust system to dry out more and allow higher RPMs.
 
That's not the way I understand it. Perhaps my dislike for the system has skewed my understanding. LOL Valve closes down water flow to the pipe up front as the pressure increases on the cooling water line from the jet pump.
 
It appears we are both partly right. I have done some looking around and it is operated by exhaust pressure but it does seem to close the valve. Allowing less water to enter the mid pipe. Therefore, drying out the exhaust pipe system.
 
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