What parts to use for monster build?

[IDoSeaDoo]

Hey everyone. I have had particularly bad luck with motors going out on me in my 97 SPX. The carbed 787 just won't hold up, despite me putting in new new and remanufactured parts and doing everything by the book. I've been trying to keep a stock ski, for the sake of reliability, but I just can't get it.

Several people who have rode with me commented that I do ride my machine hard, so this brings me to my question: how do I build a bulletproof ski, which I can ride the hell out of and that will hold up, even with aftermarket parts?

At some point, I plan to build a ski with the following parts:

SpecI Factory Pipe
Novi carbs (reworked OEMs by NOVI)
Aftermarket FAs
Water Injection
97 SPX waterbox
MSD Ignition module
(maybe) a port job on the cases and jugs

I might or might not raise the compression. Not sure if there is a huge benefit to that. Seems like that would just compromise longevity more than anything.

Anyway, with this setup, what crank should I use? Previously, I used remanufactured cranks by some hack on ebay. They used WSM rebuild kits and the first crank lasted 20hr, then a conn rod split in half and destroyed half the motor. The second ran great for most of the season, then at the end, I got this condition where the PTO plug keeps fouling out. I'm suspecting that it lost an oil seal. It's getting extremely hard to find new OEMs. Some parts vendors offer an OEM reman for ~$430 or so, and require a core.

I used to use WSM pistons, but would always find scored pistons and cylinders after just half a season. I heard that WSM expands more than other brands and actually becomes out of spec. I forgot what the conditioins were for this, but that it tends to happen if you don't "warm the boat up properly"? Anyway, I want to use anything BUT wsm in the future. What do you guys go to for pistons, and about how much should they cost?

Any specific brand for rings? I can only seem to find RIK. Not sure if any of my problems could be attributed to them sticking or maybe it's just the piston over-expanding and gouging them into the sleeve. Sometimes I find broken rings after an engine failure.

With $450 for a crank, and another $200 for pistons (plus $100 to bore) and another $70 for gaskets, we're up to almost what a reman motor would cost from SBT or SES. Now, some of those can even come with a warranty.

If it were you, and you were building this machine, what parts would you use, and where would you get them from? What would you expect to pay?

 

[Ankeneyou]

I went with SES for my 97 spx build. Can't comment on reliability though since I still haven't got it all back together yet.

 

[Nowak]

With all the work you have done have you ever rebuilt the carbs and change out fuel lines?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I went with SES for my 97 spx build. Can't comment on reliability though since I still haven't got it all back together yet.

What did it cost, and what kind of warranty did they give? Having not installed it, when does the warranty start? I didn't think I could use the warranty on those shit cranks I got because I too waited forever to install them.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

With all the work you have done have you ever rebuilt the carbs and change out fuel lines?

Yea, fuel lines were changed long ago, and I've rebuilt the carbs several times.

 

[Ankeneyou]

What did it cost, and what kind of warranty did they give? Having not installed it, when does the warranty start? I didn't think I could use the warranty on those shit cranks I got because I too waited forever to install them.

I sent both a 951 and a 787 in at the end of Nov so with the black friday pricing and 2 rebuilds I paid $650 for the 787 (standard 1 yr warranty) and $900 for the 951 (premium 2 year warranty.

Warranty starts as soon as u receive the engine back. For me it started in Jan but gives me a full season on riding with winter.

I wanted the premium on the 787 but the specials made that one still $300 more than the standard. He must have had more leftover parts for the 951 so made that a better deal.

I'd definitely call and see what u can work out don't just go by Web pricing.

 

[Ankeneyou]

Add in about $70 to ship each engine there plus packing materials.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Would the warranties cover aftermarket parts like different pipe/carbs?

 

[Spimothy Leary]

as far as I understand the SBT no fault covers everything including stupidity. I've taken cores to them that were an embarrassment, filthy cases, completely locked up crank with no rods, rusty cylinders and completely pitted head, I literally use swept up off the garage floor parts that all need rebuilding, they don't ask a lot of questions, they just want a complete motor.

can't speak for SES.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

as far as I understand the SBT no fault covers everything including stupidity. I've taken cores to them that were an embarrassment, filthy cases, completely locked up crank with no rods, rusty cylinders and completely pitted head, I literally use swept up off the garage floor parts that all need rebuilding, they don't ask a lot of questions, they just want a complete motor.

can't speak for SES.

And how do their motors stand up to punishment? What about aftermarket parts?

 

[mikidymac]

So to clear some things up, I can only say what I have experienced and I have been wrenching or skis since 1993.

WSM is fine for a stock rebuild as is SBT. They are both cast pistons and expand just like any other stock ones. If you had issues with them sticking then the stock pistons would have too. The only pistons that take special care are forged like Wiseco they need to be setup different and take longer to warm up before you stomp on it.

As far as cranks the one you got on ebay was probably assembled wrong and the WSM parts did not cause it. I would have no problems using a WSM or SBT crank in a stock ski.

Same goes for FullBore, SBT and SES reman engines, fine for stock.

Now, you are not talking about a stock ski in your near future and you admit you ride hard. So....I would not go with any of the previous routs. First off are you confident you can do the work yourself?

To build a bulletproof 787 base that will take the punishment you are asking about you are going to have to do it yourself.
1. Reman crank direct from Seadoo, they don't sell new anymore. $420
2. Oem or Pro-X pistons, I prefer OEM.
3. OEM Crank Seals.
4. Rebuild the rotary shaft with OEM seals and bearings.
5. Rebuild the balancer shaft with OEM bearings and seals.

I suspect some of your piston issues are from the machine work on the cylinders. You have to have them setup, bored, honed and chamfered correctly by someone who knows what they are doing and hopefully have done a lot of these. For me it is a no brainer, Group K charges $90 to bore, hone and piston match your cylinders and they know what they are doing.

In the end you will probably have $800-900 into it and no warranty but it will take whatever you throw at it.

Like they say, Reliable, fast, cheap pick any two. The price is lower with the full remans and the warranty is good but they use economy parts that are of lower quality than OEM. This is fine in a stock application but not in a performance application.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

For groupk, is that 90 per cylinder? Do they do any porting still?

 

[howie099]

I have to say wsm platinum pistons have to be ok and it must be machine work like others have said. I had Fullbore do my cylinders and bought the platinum piston through him and my gp1200 is going strong. It was done like 7 years ago and that thing gets beat and still keeps going. SES and Fullbore do custom builds also and you can get the warranty with them.

 

[glsmohio]

For groupk, is that 90 per cylinder? Do they do any porting still?

thats to bore both if i remember, they do still do porting but get your money out! the ski your wanting to build is the ski i just did a build on. im even running the group k head

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

thats to bore both if i remember, they do still do porting but get your money out! the ski your wanting to build is the ski i just did a build on. im even running the group k head

Are you still running pump gas? How much would they do a head for? I have one that's a big chewed up, could they work with that? What carbs you running?

 

[glsmohio]

my plan is to run it on 93 pump gas as a guy on here that knows a lot told me how to set it up but who knows. I think the head was 110 plus shipping. You would have to send them pics of your head. I know they cant use an sbt head. Im going to run westcoast 44s. im working on getting some more parts to build another one.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Maybe I should sell my 97 SPX as is and buy all the necessary parts with the proceeds. I bet I could get $800. It runs and has good compression, just fouls the rear plug all the time... I wanted to have a his/her x4, but the wife says we have too many skis. I want to keep at least one cruiser in the fleet... or should that be the boat lol

 

[glsmohio]

well I have 3 skis that are stock and i have 3 more that have mods done. about to have another hx to build up

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

well I have 3 skis that are stock and i have 3 more that have mods done. about to have another hx to build up

You're living my dream

 

[Ankeneyou]

well I have 3 skis that are stock and i have 3 more that have mods done. about to have another hx to build up

Um you are forgetting that u need to buy my Hx!! My herd of 11 needs to be about 4 by mid summer. I need to ride more and wrench less this year!

 

[glsmohio]

Um you are forgetting that u need to buy my Hx!! My herd of 11 needs to be about 4 by mid summer. I need to ride more and wrench less this year!

thats why i said about to lol, i just got to get around the wife on this one lol

 

[Ankeneyou]

thats why i said about to lol, i just got to get around the wife on this one lol

Haha sounds good

 

[Matt Braley]

Hey everyone. I have had particularly bad luck with motors going out on me in my 97 SPX. The carbed 787 just won't hold up, despite me putting in new new and remanufactured parts and doing everything by the book. I've been trying to keep a stock ski, for the sake of reliability, but I just can't get it.

Several people who have rode with me commented that I do ride my machine hard, so this brings me to my question: how do I build a bulletproof ski, which I can ride the hell out of and that will hold up, even with aftermarket parts?

At some point, I plan to build a ski with the following parts:

SpecI Factory Pipe
Novi carbs (reworked OEMs by NOVI)
Aftermarket FAs
Water Injection
97 SPX waterbox
MSD Ignition module
(maybe) a port job on the cases and jugs

I might or might not raise the compression. Not sure if there is a huge benefit to that. Seems like that would just compromise longevity more than anything.

Anyway, with this setup, what crank should I use? Previously, I used remanufactured cranks by some hack on ebay. They used WSM rebuild kits and the first crank lasted 20hr, then a conn rod split in half and destroyed half the motor. The second ran great for most of the season, then at the end, I got this condition where the PTO plug keeps fouling out. I'm suspecting that it lost an oil seal. It's getting extremely hard to find new OEMs. Some parts vendors offer an OEM reman for ~$430 or so, and require a core.

I used to use WSM pistons, but would always find scored pistons and cylinders after just half a season. I heard that WSM expands more than other brands and actually becomes out of spec. I forgot what the conditioins were for this, but that it tends to happen if you don't "warm the boat up properly"? Anyway, I want to use anything BUT wsm in the future. What do you guys go to for pistons, and about how much should they cost?

Any specific brand for rings? I can only seem to find RIK. Not sure if any of my problems could be attributed to them sticking or maybe it's just the piston over-expanding and gouging them into the sleeve. Sometimes I find broken rings after an engine failure.

With $450 for a crank, and another $200 for pistons (plus $100 to bore) and another $70 for gaskets, we're up to almost what a reman motor would cost from SBT or SES. Now, some of those can even come with a warranty.

If it were you, and you were building this machine, what parts would you use, and where would you get them from? What would you expect to pay?

If your not one of the many members that text me for parts and advice all the time you should be (850)259-1581. I have many new OEM pistons, gasket kits, etc. I have a lot of aftermarket parts (probably the second largest stash in the country). I don't really do orders under $200(that's what Minnetonka4me is for) but I give endless free advice to our members here weather or not they ever buy anything from me. I have personally set up most brands of carbs, pipes, etc. so don't wonder or feel like you have to go by what some random guy on the internet said, just ask. I've been too busy at my real job lately to list anything for sale but I still send out hard to find bits a couple times a weak to folks that hit me up. So feel free to hit me up for price checks, jet sizes, potential benefits of AM parts, etc.

 

[mikidymac]

I would contact Matt.

For machine work Group K still does it and yes, $90 is for both cylinders and they fixed my GTI 720 head that lost a piston pin bearing for $100. They still do porting too but I am not sure of the price.

 

[suke]

Hey everyone. I have had particularly bad luck with motors going out on me in my 97 SPX. The carbed 787 just won't hold up, despite me putting in new new and remanufactured parts and doing everything by the book. I've been trying to keep a stock ski, for the sake of reliability, but I just can't get it.

Several people who have rode with me commented that I do ride my machine hard, so this brings me to my question: how do I build a bulletproof ski, which I can ride the hell out of and that will hold up, even with aftermarket parts?

At some point, I plan to build a ski with the following parts:

SpecI Factory Pipe
Novi carbs (reworked OEMs by NOVI)
Aftermarket FAs
Water Injection
97 SPX waterbox
MSD Ignition module
(maybe) a port job on the cases and jugs

I might or might not raise the compression. Not sure if there is a huge benefit to that. Seems like that would just compromise longevity more than anything.

Anyway, with this setup, what crank should I use? Previously, I used remanufactured cranks by some hack on ebay. They used WSM rebuild kits and the first crank lasted 20hr, then a conn rod split in half and destroyed half the motor. The second ran great for most of the season, then at the end, I got this condition where the PTO plug keeps fouling out. I'm suspecting that it lost an oil seal. It's getting extremely hard to find new OEMs. Some parts vendors offer an OEM reman for ~$430 or so, and require a core.

I used to use WSM pistons, but would always find scored pistons and cylinders after just half a season. I heard that WSM expands more than other brands and actually becomes out of spec. I forgot what the conditioins were for this, but that it tends to happen if you don't "warm the boat up properly"? Anyway, I want to use anything BUT wsm in the future. What do you guys go to for pistons, and about how much should they cost?

Any specific brand for rings? I can only seem to find RIK. Not sure if any of my problems could be attributed to them sticking or maybe it's just the piston over-expanding and gouging them into the sleeve. Sometimes I find broken rings after an engine failure.

With $450 for a crank, and another $200 for pistons (plus $100 to bore) and another $70 for gaskets, we're up to almost what a reman motor would cost from SBT or SES. Now, some of those can even come with a warranty.

If it were you, and you were building this machine, what parts would you use, and where would you get them from? What would you expect to pay?

LOL hard is an understatement.