Starting issue 2008 RXP 255

[RXP Dan]

Hi everyone, I'm searching for clues what may be wrong with the my 2008 RXP 255 (90hr) before I take it in. The issue started last year in the spring. PWC would start in the water but would have issues restarting in the water. After few trips it would start off the trailer but once tied off at the dock to park the truck the PWC wouldn't start again so I would have to haul it back. On land it would hesitate to start so I've replaced all spark plugs, solenoid and a battery. It stared on land better but in water it would start on and off on the trailer. If started on the trailer it would not re-start in the water after putting away the trailer. Once taken out of the water it would start again after few tries and when put back in water to try starting it it wouldn't start, just tries turning over.

Forward to this year, I was about to take it in the shop as they said they would test the fuel pump pressure and engine compression but before I went I took the PWC to the lake to give it a try as it was starting on land without any issues. On the trailer still out of the water I started it as my brother backed it in the water and put away the trailer so I didn't need to re-start the RXP in the water. PWC ran excellent as I played with it for a good 45minutes. No power issues, top speed of 113km was hit with no problems and when I was ready to put it away I turned off the PWC at the dock to see if it would start and there were no issues. Waited 5 or 10 minutes and it would restart fine. Today i went by myself and submerged it with the trailer and it started fine and I took it to the dock and before even tying it I tried to restart and same issue as last year wouldn't re-start in the water. It tries to turn over but just won't so back on the trailer it went and a trip home. So far after returning home it won't restart.

There are no fault codes showing.

So I'm back to square one and I thought of asking the sea doo community for suggestions before I call the dealer again and book an appointment.

Thanks

 

[mkov608]

It appears your ski has trailer separation anxiety. On a more serious note, this is a strange problem for sure!

1. Are you performing all of recommended pre-season and post-season maintenance as outlined in the service manual?

2. Have you inspected the jet pump inlet for damage and obstructions (where the water goes in)?

3. Have you pulled the jet pump and inspected the bearing for radial play? The max radial play is .029"

4. Did you replace the jet pump seal in 2013 (5-year point)? Even if you haven't hit 100 hrs, I'd recommend you service the jet pump. I'll bet you lunch this is where you will find problems.

5. What battery are you using? How many cold cranking amps listed on the label? How many when you test it?

6. When you try to start it and it doesn't start, does it sound like it's straining or does it sound like it did when it was new?

7. List all maintenance and repair actions you have performed over the past 2 years.

 

[RXP Dan]

1. Yes. The seadoo is also stores inside the garage.

2-4 no. I'll try inspecting it today or tomorrow.

5-6 battery was purchased from authorized seadoo dealer so it's same as the original that came with the unit. I honestly don't remember how it sounded when i bought it 9 years ago but it reminds me to when car battery is low and the engine just doesn't turn over. But on land it would start, today it still hasn't started after the initial run from trailer to the dock.

7. Regular pro post season maintenance. With addition to solenoid and new battery last year.

thanks for suggestions. It's the most suggestions I've got regarding this. Only think regarding jet pump, why would that prevent it from starting in water and not on land? I kept thinking something gets wet which prevents it from starting in water but it doesn't make sense why it's not consistent as in the last time it was in the water and after a long run it had no problem re starting. I was joking the seadoo was afraid of going in the water too since it would start on land.

 

[mkov608]

The engine drives the jet pump directly via the driveshaft. If there is a problem with the bearing (the impeller can't rotate freely), then that drag makes it harder to start the engine because the engine and the jet pump are directly connected. So let's say you do have a problem with the jet-pump bearing and it takes more force to turn the impeller; then you put the ski in the water and there is even more drag on the impeller as it attempts to flow water through the pump.

Get under the ski and take some pictures of the front side of the impeller, focus on the gap between the tip of the impeller blade and the wear-ring.

Also, get the battery load tested. New batteries fail too, and we need to be able to rule it out as a cause.

 

[mkov608]

Dan, where are you located?

 

[RXP Dan]

It's hard to see on the image but the gap is there but I would have to pull it out to measure the gap. When trying to start the shaft rotates fine but the engine won't start. This is the first time in a long time that the seadoo wouldn't start this long outside of the water.

Which was the issue before I changed the spark plugs mid season. Didn't start in the water so I took the battery in to be tested and replaced the battery which I thought was fine (according to the dealer the year old battery was failing and he showed the new battery out of the box passing). The reading on the battery currently is 12.1V and when trying to start it drops to 10.6V.

Also the seadoo has only been used in fresh water. BTW I'm from Kelowna, BC Canada.

 

[mkov608]

Ok. The battery is low, and it needs to be recharged to test it properly. Recharge the battery, and then get it load tested. Let us know how many cold-cranking amps the battery is producing.

 

[RXP Dan]

Battery is good I took it into a shop and they replaced the intercooler on saturday and said it was cracked. I took the skii out to the lake to test it and the problem is the same. So now I question whether there was anything wrong with the intercooler to begin with. I wasn't getting any fault codes after the last fail earlier in summer, before taking it into the shop but this time I've tested it and video taped the different scenarios and after returning home I got fault codes which I will start analyzing maybe on the weekend and after I call the shop.

Fault codes are:
P1544 - ??? overheating
P0351 - Ignition coil #1 open circuit or shorted to ground or to 12V
P0352 - Ignition coil #2 open circuit or shorted to ground or to 12V
P0353 - Ignition coil #3 open circuit or shorted to ground or to 12V

Observation: When the top part (2 -4 inches) of the jet pump housing is still visible above water, the seadoo starts, but if it's fully submerged in won't. After starting the seadoo when it's above the water "limit" I then proceeded to push it in the water, off the trailer with the help of having the skii in reverse and after little bit of running (about 5mins) the seadoo had no problem restarting in the water as normal.

From quickly looking at the codes but not really taking the time to look at the seadoo or reading up on it too much I'm back to electrical issue which at first it didn't make sense as I was thinking of battery and solenoid but ignored the fact the wires had to run to the back and by this I ASSume that they must be quite low on the skii to get wet this quickly. Possibly a broken/cracked outer seal when submerged caused water to get into a harness and shorts. After running a while the heat causes the seal to expand and thus the reason for the seadoo being able to restart after short period of running in the water.

So far that's my guess and I'll see what the shop tells me tomorrow after charging me for the intercooler and oil replacement. And I'll troubleshoot this maybe on the weekend when I have more time.

Any additional suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[nateccnn]

I had similar issues last year. It eventually progressed to where it would not start on the trailer either. Took it home and it fired right up in the driveway. But later it would not even start there. Made no sense.

I replaced the DESS post and it's been running like a champ ever since. I was lucky enough to have two identical skis...off by 1 on the hull IDs. I used the good ski as a donor to test before buying a new DESS for the bad ski.

 

[nateccnn]

Also check to see if you can jump the starter solenoid to start it while in the water. If it has an OEM solenoid, those things are known to go bad within first 10 years, usually sooner. Do you know how to jump a starter solenoid? If not I can dig up some pictures.

 

[nateccnn]

On the 2007 the starter solenoid is located in the hull, below the seat, on the left side, next to the fuse block. Remove the two red caps and use a needle nose plier to jump across the two nuts the secure the wires under the red caps. One tip of the pliers on one nut and the other tip on the other nut, at the same time. Do it quickly to avoid arcing (sparks). Starter should turn over when you do that. You want to test it when it is in whatever condition causes it not to start. Make sure DESS Key is on the DESS post. Be ready for it to go under power if it starts.

 

[mkov608]

Battery is good I took it into a shop and they replaced the intercooler on saturday and said it was cracked.

Well, that's one bunch of dots connected. See, your intercooler is a water to air intercooler. The water comes from the jet pump, flows through the intercooler, removes the heat from the intake air charge, and then flows into the exhaust. If your intercooler was cracked, the jet pump is pumping water through that crack into the intake manifold while you are trying to start then engine (kinda puts a damper on things). Forced induction engines sometimes use water injection to cool off the intake air charge and increase pressure density (MORE POWER!!!), but it's not good while you are trying to start the ski. So if the pump isn't fully submerged, you probably aren't pushing the water into the intake manifold. This is all just discussion at this point, since we have no idea how bad the leak was.

As for your ignition circuit problems. You need to perform wire resistance and continuity checks of those circuits. Looks like a loose connector. All of them showing "open/shorted" at one time ... rare unless the shop has been doing maintenance with an angle grinder.

 

[RXP Dan]

View attachment 37516
On the 2007 the starter solenoid is located in the hull, below the seat, on the left side, next to the fuse block. Remove the two red caps and use a needle nose plier to jump across the two nuts the secure the wires under the red caps. One tip of the pliers on one nut and the other tip on the other nut, at the same time. Do it quickly to avoid arcing (sparks). Starter should turn over when you do that. You want to test it when it is in whatever condition causes it not to start. Make sure DESS Key is on the DESS post. Be ready for it to go under power if it starts.

Solenoid has been replaced last year so that's not likely.

 

[RXP Dan]

Well, that's one bunch of dots connected. See, your intercooler is a water to air intercooler. The water comes from the jet pump, flows through the intercooler, removes the heat from the intake air charge, and then flows into the exhaust. If your intercooler was cracked, the jet pump is pumping water through that crack into the intake manifold while you are trying to start then engine (kinda puts a damper on things). Forced induction engines sometimes use water injection to cool off the intake air charge and increase pressure density (MORE POWER!!!), but it's not good while you are trying to start the ski. So if the pump isn't fully submerged, you probably aren't pushing the water into the intake manifold. This is all just discussion at this point, since we have no idea how bad the leak was.

As for your ignition circuit problems. You need to perform wire resistance and continuity checks of those circuits. Looks like a loose connector. All of them showing "open/shorted" at one time ... rare unless the shop has been doing maintenance with an angle grinder.

I'll test the old intercooler to make sure there was a crack because when I start it and push it in the water it has all the power in the world and absolutely no difference between before and after intercooler work was done. The service guy told me the tech told him the codes are usual with an oil change which to me makes no sense because what do open circuits have to do with oil change - but that's what I was told. Problem is I didn't check the codes right after bringing the skii home from the shop but after second test on the water which I ASSume is where the codes kicked in. And there was only one problem that I took the seadoo to the shop with and intercooler issue was discovered - they thought it would have been the problem that caused the skii from not starting in the water.

But yes, I plan on checking the circuits probably a weekend job as I'll need to open it all out and see what it may be as it's only occurring at a certain point when the skii is in the water. I have to put up a video for the tech on youtube so maybe I'll link it here, I don't feel like driving up there to show him at what point the seadoo doesn't start.

 

[mkov608]

Well, here's a better idea. If the codes were set in memory due to something the shop did, and the ski starts now, clear the codes and see if they return. Your ski won't start at all if you have current open ignition coil circuits. That should save you some time. I'm with you; why would you have ignition coil faults for an oil change??? I don't get those codes when I change my oil.

Do you have the old intercooler? Post a video, and show us how bad the leak is.

 

[RXP Dan]

Video of the seadoo doing it's thing. I've sped up some irrelevent parts of the video.

.

I will try to post the video of the intercooler. There was a little bit of water I got out of it but not significant to tell if it was maybe some residue from when they worked on it. There definitely isn't a stream, after a minute of running a hose I got maybe half or less teaspoon. So I will try to stand it on the air opening so if there is any water it may drain and I'll run the test tomorrow to have a better view if honestly there is anything wrong with it. When it comes to mechanics I am often sceptical especially when they don't fix the issue they were presented with - had that with Mazda dealership......

 

[RXP Dan]

Well, that's one bunch of dots connected. See, your intercooler is a water to air intercooler. The water comes from the jet pump, flows through the intercooler, removes the heat from the intake air charge, and then flows into the exhaust. If your intercooler was cracked, the jet pump is pumping water through that crack into the intake manifold while you are trying to start then engine (kinda puts a damper on things). Forced induction engines sometimes use water injection to cool off the intake air charge and increase pressure density (MORE POWER!!!), but it's not good while you are trying to start the ski. So if the pump isn't fully submerged, you probably aren't pushing the water into the intake manifold. This is all just discussion at this point, since we have no idea how bad the leak was..

I connected the water hose to the intercooler and I didn't get water coming out. I went back to the shop and they said that I can't duplicate it with a hose but it needs pressure so only way to test it is by putting it back in the ski. Mechanic watched the video and didn't really know maybe it is a fuel pump or maybe the engine. But they said the engine compression test was 80-90 psi but was within range because it's a low compression engine. I guess I need to go an find specs for the RXP, but if the engine is done why would they not tell me that before doing intercooler and they said it was on lower end but within parameters of the engine.

Offer to take it to the lake with 2 guys at around $500 to troubleshoot it and if I wanted to do that. I was like no, I'll check intercooler first since they won't prove that it's bad and with 80-90 psi quick google is showing 120 number but at this point I need to really research this myself and not rely on the shop as I'm not spending more money for them to trouble shoot IF the engine is really toast which should have been the first thing they should have told me - lucky I didn't tell them to go ahead and rebuild the supercharge like they were suggesting.

 

[mkov608]

Block off one end of the intercooler and connect an air source to the other to pressurize it. Then put it in a tub of water. The shop is right if you were only connecting a hose to it to flow water through it, but they are wrong by saying the only way to test it is to put it nto the engine.

If they performed a compression test, what were the results of all three cylinders?

 

[RXP Dan]

Block off one end of the intercooler and connect an air source to the other to pressurize it. Then put it in a tub of water. The shop is right if you were only connecting a hose to it to flow water through it, but they are wrong by saying the only way to test it is to put it nto the engine.

If they performed a compression test, what were the results of all three cylinders?

They said 80 and 90 psi which to me is extremely low. And they mentioned that only after I asked about it when paying. Looking at specs they should be somewheres around 120 so if that's the case I think they should have told me that before doing anything with intercooler.

It's frustrating because they charged me a bunch, solved nothing and if the engine is the issue they should have told me that before even suggesting intercooler work. They said 80-90 psi is at low end of acceptable psi because my unit has low compression heads.

Today they also said they would need to take it to the lake and do tests on fuel pump and what else maybe wrong....and if I wanted to do that. Will test the intercooler tomorrow and I dont know but I may check the compression test again but if the engine is toast I don't get why they never said anything regarding that, and wouldn't I have noticable performance issues outside of starting it in the water???? Sorry for the rant, just really frustrated.

 

[skiasylum]

Intercooler Test per Manual

1. Block intercooler outlet hose with large hose pincher.

2. Install pressure pump water inlet fitting. Pressurize intercooler

3. Must hold 10 psi for ten minutes.

If there is a pressure drop, first spray tool, hoses and adapters with a soapy water solution to ensure they are not leaking.

Otherwise, replace the intercooler.

Hopefully your intercooler was leaking, spraying water into an engine trying to start it is not good thing, spraying water into a running engine can be a good thing, I use to fly a water injected airplane but we could not turn on the water until after we had advanced throttles.