New 2000 Seadoo Challenger 1800 - Merc M2 210

[henryb]

Just bought the boat this weekend. Took it out on Lake Ontario on Father's Day, had a great first day with it. It has some small issues that I will have to address, but overall it is a great boat.

The reason I am writing to this forum is because after about 3 hours on the lake, mostly at cruising speed (25mph) or slower.... as I was idling back into the boat ramp, about 3' from the dock, the engine stalled out. We were so close to the dock, we just drifted in nice and slow. However, when I went to restart the engine to manuever into position for the trailer, it would not start? The boat did not come with any manuals, specifically the M2 Operators Guide, so it was all an educated guess on starting procedures.

I was thinking that maybe the plugs were fouled as the gas was from last year, the tank was almost full, so I didn't want to try and drain it out? So I pulled out one of the plugs last night, now that it is up on the trailer and in my garage (kind of a hard place to dry start it)... but the plug looked to be brand new. Maybe I need to pull all of the plugs and check them.

Without any manuals, I don't know if there is a auto-enrichment or choke, not sure how that function works. I did notice last night that the ignition key does have a push function that is commonly used for an electric choke. But I could not activate it, with the key in the ON position.

I had a hard time finding what the correct plugs are for that engine, but eventually, I found out that they are supposed to be NGK BUZ8H. It is the carberated version of the M2. The plug that I pulled out was a Champion QL6VC... from a quick search on the net, it is the Champions match for the NGK BUZ8H.

I will pull the trailer out of the garage either tonight or tomorrow and see if it will start. I understand that the white plastic garden hose fitting over on the starboard side under the engine cover is a fitting to running water through the engine to allow dry starts for longer then 20 seconds.

Any guidance in resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Brent.

 

[Dr Honda]

Welcome.

Yes, there is an auto enrichment. It's the valve by the carbs, and it feeds from one of the floats. Since it was running OK, I wouldn't worry about it yet.

I would get in a set of new NGK's and see if it starts. And yes, check all the plugs regardless to verify that there aren't any mechanical issues.

As a final fyi...... some boats like to have the bilge fan running at low speeds to keep fresh air in the engine compartment.

 

[Mike99]

And I'll add, since you haven't downloaded the service manual and owner's manual for your boat yet...

When running on a hose, start engine first, then start the water flow. Otherwise the water can flow into your engine. Reverse procedure to shut off - water off, then turn off the engine.

I'm not familiar with the Merc boats, but if it has a carbon seal where the drive shaft exits the boat, you should not run for longer than a couple of minutes on the hose.

Mike

 

[henryb]

And I'll add, since you haven't downloaded the service manual and owner's manual for your boat yet...

When running on a hose, start engine first, then start the water flow. Otherwise the water can flow into your engine. Reverse procedure to shut off - water off, then turn off the engine.

I'm not familiar with the Merc boats, but if it has a carbon seal where the drive shaft exits the boat, you should not run for longer than a couple of minutes on the hose.

Mike

Hey Mike,

That is fantastic information about the water flow... I would have not guessed that. As for my Polaris PWC, I can run the water before and after the engine starts no problem.

Regarding the owners manuals, I downloaded the Seadoo Operators Guide last night and printed it this morning. But really it doesn't say much about running it with the water flow from this connection... it mostly refers to the Mercury M2 Operators Guide for anything related to running the engine. Those M2 manuals seem to be a bit difficult to find... still have not found one. However, I have just purchased a printed copy of the 2000 Seadoo Shop Manual on ebay for $25... it will arrive in about a week or so. Maybe it has more info about operations on the engine?

Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated.
Brent.

 

[henryb]

Welcome.

Yes, there is an auto enrichment. It's the valve by the carbs, and it feeds from one of the floats. Since it was running OK, I wouldn't worry about it yet.

I would get in a set of new NGK's and see if it starts. And yes, check all the plugs regardless to verify that there aren't any mechanical issues.

As a final fyi...... some boats like to have the bilge fan running at low speeds to keep fresh air in the engine compartment.

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the feedback on the auto-enrichment and bilge fan, that is all good to know. I just bought a Shop Manual on ebay, so hopefully it will have lots of this type of information.

I will definitely get a set of NGK plugs tonight and replace the Champions. I will also put in some gas-line conditioner for the old-gas, that might bring it back to life?

 

[Dr Honda]

Generally... if the gas is already sour... nothing will bring it back to life. BUT... if you were running around for 3 hr's on it already... I would think the fuel is OK. I wouldn't do anything other than top it off with fresh fuel. BUT... before you do that... open the cap and give it a sniff. If it smells like varnish... drain it.

On that note... since the fuel was old... you may want to replace the fuel filters also.

 

[henryb]

Generally... if the gas is already sour... nothing will bring it back to life. BUT... if you were running around for 3 hr's on it already... I would think the fuel is OK. I wouldn't do anything other than top it off with fresh fuel. BUT... before you do that... open the cap and give it a sniff. If it smells like varnish... drain it.

On that note... since the fuel was old... you may want to replace the fuel filters also.

Hey that is a great idea about the fuel filters... that being said, I do have the Shop Manual coming in the mail, but it will be a week or 2 probably coming from the USA. So I would need to identify where they are and what the part numbers are. I have one guess for location... there is a filter that is on the port side of the engine, but it looks like an Oil Filter? Gas filters are usually closer to the gas tank itself?

Suggestions? and Thanks again.
Brent.

 

[henryb]

Welcome.
. . .
I would get in a set of new NGK's and see if it starts. And yes, check all the plugs regardless to verify that there aren't any mechanical issues.
. . .

Hey Tony,

I pulled all 6 plugs last night, they were all the same Champion QL6VC type plugs. They were all in "brand new" condition. From what I could find on the web, I don't think that these plugs have the RFI resister in them? Thus, I'm going out to Napa Auto today to pick up some NGK BUZ8H plugs just to be sure, as you recommended.

I also have heard from a guy at local Seadoo marina (they sell Seadoo, but not the boats)... however, he recommended to use only Mercury 2-cycle premium synthetic oil. But to check what oil is in there now. Called the previous owner, he said he was using Evinrude XD50 semi-synthetic 2-stroke oil. So I'm not sure if the Merc oil and the Evinrude oil are compatible to mix... as the oil tank is about 1/3 full. Suggestions?

Thanks again,
Brent.

 

[henryb]

Hey Guys,

Well, I did everything that was recommended today... I put in the new NGK BUZ8H plugs, put in some fuel stabilizer, replaced the Fuel Filter, filled up the tank with new gas (Sunoco Ultra-94)... the tank was about half full of old gas before.

When I dry started it in my drive-way, it took a bit of cranking to get it to fire up... but it did fire up... with alot of smoke. I'm guessing this is a Mercury thing with auto-enrichment or something, not sure? Took it down to the lake and again it fired up with a few cranks, again, with alot of smoke, which cleared after about a minute. In general, it seemed to run smoother, as we have about a 15 minute ride at idle to get out of the port. Then we took it up to half throttle, seemed to be going well at 35mph. But at full throttle, it could only get 40mph and 5200 rpm. Last Sunday, with the wrong plugs, old gas, old fuel filter... we got 5500rpm and 45mph. So it looks like we are going the wrong direction?

Any suggestions?

 

[Dr Honda]

It could be the throttle isn't opening all the way... or the ignition timing is a little low. BUT... have you checked the compression on that engine?

 

[henryb]

It could be the throttle isn't opening all the way... or the ignition timing is a little low. BUT... have you checked the compression on that engine?

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure exactly how to check if the throttle is opening all of the way, the carbs are in a tough position to view into the throat to check the flaps. I would think, removing the throttle cable and seeing if the carb flaps have any movement beyond where they get set to with the cable attached.

The other thing regarding that point, is that the throttle lever at the drivers seat only seems to move to about 3/4 of the distance that it appears it can move (maybe a bit more, but approx 3/4)... not sure if that is an issue or if that is normal?

I'm afraid that it might be plugged up jets in one or more of the carbs... this might be one for a Merc mechanic to check? Regarding the compression, no I have not had it checked... another one for a mechanic. Looks like it might have to go into the shop next week?

Thoughts?

 

[henryb]

The marina is suspicious of the compression , but the previous owner said he did a compression check this year when he pulled it out of storage and all cylinders were 120 or better. He did not drive it other then a few very brief test drives for potential buyers on a river where they could not reach full clip.

I also checked this weekend, that the throttle cable does open the carbs all the way.

One thing that seems very odd, it is really quite hard to start especially if it is hot. It also smokes a lot, I mean... Way more then it should, especially at start up and at any slow speed. Less noticeable at higher speeds.

So what else could limit RPM's to 5200 and subsequently top speed was limited to 43, with one person in the boat.

 

[Dr Honda]

If the compression is suspect... check it. Never trust what the last owner tells you. It's not a hard test... and it will tell you a lot about the health of the engine.

 

[henryb]

If the compression is suspect... check it. Never trust what the last owner tells you. It's not a hard test... and it will tell you a lot about the health of the engine.

Hey Tony, absolutely, I will most definitely get it checked. However, my question is this, if it turns out that the compression is ok... What is the next most likely a avenue to follow? I'm thinking it might have something to do with the severe smoking at start up? Might fouled oil injectors cause poor top end performance? My next guess would be gunk in the carbs from old ethanol drying up in there if it wasn't run out properly? Feedback?

Just wondering what is the max RPM that these M2 210HP carberated engines should run at?

 

[Dr Honda]

These engines smoke at idle. More that your would expect. BUT... they clear up quickly at any setting above idle.


If Carbs are suspect... a cleaning is always a good thing. BUT, the plugs will tell you a lot about that. Since you have a fresh set in... go for a ride, and open the throttle for a minute or so... and chop the ignition. Then, look at the plugs.

BUT.... before we chase any other issues... we need to know about the compression. That's really the pinnacle of 2-stroke tests. Especially when the top RPM's start to drop.


But if it's OK... I would verify ignition timing, and that all the linkage to the pickups are functioning, and hasn't come loose.



Off the top of my head... the 210 should peak out around 5250~5700. SO... your number at 5200 on the analogue tach is probably still in the OK range. You can see peak RPM's change from one weekend to the next because of air temps, and humidity. Sometimes running the bilge fan will help the RPM's. (keeping fresh air around the engine) My engine needs it for any time I idle for a long time. Try opening your deck lid, and see how it runs.


Oh.... on that note.... you may want to run the engine with the lid up, and check for an exhaust leak. (a smoky idle helps with that)


****EDIT****


I almost forgot. Running high octane fuels really isn't good for these engines. Basically, it burns slow, and on a 2-stroke, where the ports are half way down cyl.... you want to burn all your fuel quick. Also... slower burning fuel runs hotter.

Basically you want the fuel to burn fast, but stable. The 210 engine will run fine on "Regular" grade fuel. If you have alcohol in your fuel... I recommend mid grade. (89 oct)

Believe it or not... it will help top RPM's.

 

[henryb]

These engines smoke at idle. More that your would expect. BUT... they clear up quickly at any setting above idle.

Very interesting characteristic of these engines? Well, mine certainly does it!

If Carbs are suspect... a cleaning is always a good thing. BUT, the plugs will tell you a lot about that. Since you have a fresh set in... go for a ride, and open the throttle for a minute or so... and chop the ignition. Then, look at the plugs.

BUT.... before we chase any other issues... we need to know about the compression. That's really the pinnacle of 2-stroke tests. Especially when the top RPM's start to drop.


But if it's OK... I would verify ignition timing, and that all the linkage to the pickups are functioning, and hasn't come loose.

I will certainly check, well... have the marina check!

Off the top of my head... the 210 should peak out around 5250~5700. SO... your number at 5200 on the analogue tach is probably still in the OK range. You can see peak RPM's change from one weekend to the next because of air temps, and humidity. Sometimes running the bilge fan will help the RPM's. (keeping fresh air around the engine) My engine needs it for any time I idle for a long time. Try opening your deck lid, and see how it runs.

Oh that is an interesting stat, I thought I read max power output was around 5850, so I figured max RPM would be a few hundred higher then that, say 6200. But maybe I was reading about a different engine... As I was reviewing information on alot of engines before I ended up buying this one!

Oh.... on that note.... you may want to run the engine with the lid up, and check for an exhaust leak. (a smoky idle helps with that)

Great tip... Thx again!

I almost forgot. Running high octane fuels really isn't good for these engines. Basically, it burns slow, and on a 2-stroke, where the ports are half way down cyl.... you want to burn all your fuel quick. Also... slower burning fuel runs hotter.

Basically you want the fuel to burn fast, but stable. The 210 engine will run fine on "Regular" grade fuel. If you have alcohol in your fuel... I recommend mid grade. (89 oct)

Believe it or not... it will help top RPM's.

This is a very interesting and cost saving piece of info. I had always thought high test gas would be better!

 

[Dr Honda]

Very interesting characteristic of these engines? Well, mine certainly does it!

Even after these engines warm up... you will see smoke with an extended idle. So... that's not a worry. BUT... if someone has been playing with the carbs... you may want to check the linkage to the oil pump, and verify that it's adjusted correctly.

Honestly... it's how most 2-strokes run. That's why the EPA wants to see only 4-strokes in everything.

Oh that is an interesting stat, I thought I read max power output was around 5850, so I figured max RPM would be a few hundred higher then that, say 6200. But maybe I was reading about a different engine... As I was reviewing information on alot of engines before I ended up buying this one!

6000 to 6200 RPM on the top is for the 240 EFI engine. Also... if you are really wanting to know your top RPM... then you need to hook up a real tach to the engine. The factory one doesn't have enough resolution to get a good handle on the number. Also, they aren't super accurate.

this a very interesting and cost saving piece of info. I had always thought high test gas would be better!

With fuel... there really isn't a "Better". (assuming good fuel) The octane numbers they show us is simply a measure of ignition quality, and burn rate. So, buying "Premium" fuel for an engine that doesn't need it... is a waste.


The fuel itself, won't make anymore power. But, a slower burning fuel CAN SUPORT higher HP levels... assuming the engine is tuned to take advantage of that fuel.

Back in the day... when lead'ed fuels were still around... the fuels could produce more power. The reason for that was... lead was an great additive to control detonation. SO an engine could be tuned to burn the high octane fuel... but if lower grades of fuel were used... engine "Knock" wasn't normally an issue.


High octane fuels are important in a long-stroke engine (need slow burn to push the piston all the way down)... high static compression engines (high static compression will accelerate the burn)... boosted engines (turbo/supercharger makes more cyl pressure) or trying to run extra ignition timing. (igniting fuel before TDC will create more cyl pressure) These are all 4-stroke examples.


In a 2-stroke... the intake and exhaust "Valves" are simply ports in the side of the cyl. SO... if your fuel is still burning when the exhaust port opens... then that flame will simply go out the port. This means you are wasting power, since the expanding gasses aren't being used to push the piston. AND... More importantly... that VERY hot gas will over heat the piston crown, and could actually cause a melt down.

The ideal situation is to have all the fuel burnt, just as the port opens. So... that means you got all the thermal energy out of the fuel... and as the piston is still traveling down... it allows the "Gas" to expand... and in turn, cools the gas. (remember highschool physics? PV=NRT)

So... the moral of the story is... your "Best" power will come from the fuel that the engine was tuned on. (in this case, 87/89 oct)

 

[henryb]

Even after these engines warm up... you will see smoke with an extended idle. So... that's not a worry. BUT... if someone has been playing with the carbs... you may want to check the linkage to the oil pump, and verify that it's adjusted correctly.

Certainly it is hard to say if someone has been playing with the carbs, but your suggestion is a good idea to check those linkages. Even tho it is normal to have some smoking at idle, i still think mine is a bit excessive... so I will get this checked.

With fuel... there really isn't a "Better". (assuming good fuel) The octane numbers they show us is simply a measure of ignition quality, and burn rate. So, buying "Premium" fuel for an engine that doesn't need it... is a waste.


The fuel itself, won't make anymore power. But, a slower burning fuel CAN SUPORT higher HP levels... assuming the engine is tuned to take advantage of that fuel.

Back in the day... when lead'ed fuels were still around... the fuels could produce more power. The reason for that was... lead was an great additive to control detonation. SO an engine could be tuned to burn the high octane fuel... but if lower grades of fuel were used... engine "Knock" wasn't normally an issue.


High octane fuels are important in a long-stroke engine (need slow burn to push the piston all the way down)... high static compression engines (high static compression will accelerate the burn)... boosted engines (turbo/supercharger makes more cyl pressure) or trying to run extra ignition timing. (igniting fuel before TDC will create more cyl pressure) These are all 4-stroke examples.


In a 2-stroke... the intake and exhaust "Valves" are simply ports in the side of the cyl. SO... if your fuel is still burning when the exhaust port opens... then that flame will simply go out the port. This means you are wasting power, since the expanding gasses aren't being used to push the piston. AND... More importantly... that VERY hot gas will over heat the piston crown, and could actually cause a melt down.

The ideal situation is to have all the fuel burnt, just as the port opens. So... that means you got all the thermal energy out of the fuel... and as the piston is still traveling down... it allows the "Gas" to expand... and in turn, cools the gas. (remember highschool physics? PV=NRT)

So... the moral of the story is... your "Best" power will come from the fuel that the engine was tuned on. (in this case, 87/89 oct)

This is very good information about the "long burn" characteristic of premium gas. It all makes too much sense, now that I hear that explanation! Certainly, I have experienced the same issue with my 2-stroke PWC, sometimes I have used premium gas and it seems like it had less power then with regular gas, but I shrugged it off as some other factor!

As usual you are a fountain of great information, thanks.

 

[henryb]

Good news and bad news:

Good news: picked up the boat from the marina... They never looked at it at all, did nothing in a week! Took it up to the cottage, put on the extended ride-plate. First ride greatly improved porpoising. A small adjustment on trimming out the ride-plate would eliminate it completely. A small adjustment on the shifter cable gives me the real Neutral in the N position.... Like magic, awesome! Using Tony's recommendation to run blower to start when engine is warm worked like a charm!

Bad News: next day the engine would not start at all. Just when it looked like everything was going so well! It cranks over and seems to sputter, even occasionally starts for a second or 2. But then stalls out. Tried it many many times today with no luck! :-(

 

[Dr Honda]

Well.... That sucks.


Did you get a compression verification yet? I don't think it's going to be an issue... but we need a base line. And... while he spark plugs are out... tell me what they look like. Keep them in order so you know what plug came out of which hole.

 

[henryb]

No, they did not do a compression test. I did take all of the spark plugs out one at a time and they all look exactly the same... brand new! So I ended up taking it into another marina, a bit further away but they commonly work on these Seadoo Merc combo's. A much smaller place, but with a great reputation, from what I've heard. I will keep you posted on their findings.

 

[henryb]

Heard back from the marina tech yesterday... The compression is a tad low ranging from lowest at 100 with 3 at 110. They said that the gas was really bad, so they will be draining it. They will also be cleaning the carbs, installing an air box, that did not come with the boat? They will also change the oil to Mercury Premium Plus. Check the timing. Replace the steering throttle cable, replace the gas tank sender and re-wire the aftermarket volt meter and hour meters that were not working properly. Really looking forward to getting it back next week.

 

[henryb]

Still not back from Marina, waiting on gas tank sender on back order and getting the water test for the tune-up this Tuesday... Should be able to pick it up on Wednesday. One thought that I had was to ask them to exchange the hour meter for a engine water temp gauge? Thoughts on that gauge... are they worth getting installed?

 

[henryb]

I chatted with the marina mechanic about installing a Water Temp Gauge instead of the Hour Meter. He said there is already a buzzer from the water temp sensor. I don't actually recall reading that it has this type of a buzzer... does anyone know if this is really the case? Or is he getting this mixed up with a different model / year that has a buzzer for this?

 

[Dr Honda]

Yes... seadoo puts a buzzer in on all their toys. The Merc boats have 2 buzzers. One is in the Merc harness ad will give you warning on the oil, water in the fuel... and so on. The Seadoo buzzer is for low voltage, low fuel, and TEMP. BUT.. the quality of the seadoo buzzer is just OK.. and on anything over 10~12 years... you can count on it being dead. I've personally changed it out on EVERY used seadoo I've owned.


BUT... on the Merc engine... there is 2 temp senders in the engine. The port side is fed into the computer, and adjusts things. (even on the 210 carb engine) the one on the starboard head isn't hooked to anything. AND... it happens to be the tan wire up in the helm. (not hooked to anything) You can put a temp gauge in easy. Just get one that is compatible with a Merc outboard... and hook it to that wire.