I am out of ideas (Sea-Doo not working)

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benjilafouine

benjilafouine

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Hello,

I rarely write in forums but this time, I am scratching my head hard.

Almost 2 weeks ago, my Sea-Doo GTI LE 2003 started acting strangely: the motor would cut (like if there was water in the gaz but all filters look fine). Then it ended up with a little bit of water in the engine after my passenger (not sure) tilted the machine. Then it started having clicking sounds when I was trying to start it. Note: I bought the sea-doo a few months ago from a relative who took great care of it and it ran for 25 hours without any issues.

I emptied the water by removing the plugs, grounding the wires and starting the engine with no plugs: some water came out and I was able to restart the sea-doo despite the solenoid being fried.

I brought to the local sea-doo mechanics here (no BRP dealer around) and he found that the ground attached to the motor was loose. He fixed it and changed the solenoid and then I went to test it on the lake.

It ran fine for one hour and then it died abruptly (the motor just stopped) and despite I could crank it, it would not start.

So I brought it to a sea-doo dealer and here is what he did:

- Made a new key (because min was pretty worn out)
- They were able to restart the motor but it had so "strength". When they would press the accelerator it would stop.
- So they check compression and it turned out pretty good a 124 hours motor: 135 in one cylinder and 130 in the second one.
- So they removed the carburetor completely and cleaned up the whole thing (two hours of work).
- While being there, the changed the turbine oil and everything was in order there (I presume).
- Then they tested the machine with a water hose and it would start just fine and they tested it a few minutes. They changed a few o-rings here and there and they told me the sea-doo is just fine (for its age).

Brought it back to the lake this morning, put it in the water, started it and it started just fine. But since I had all these troubles in the past two weeks, I stayed very close to my place. Good thinking because after two minutes running, the motor experienced a sudden loss of power. I was able to bring it to the shore where the motor stopped by itself (again). Then impossible to start it.

Brought it out of the water Still not starting. It was working one hour ago and it dies in two minutes while testing it.

What is going on? Anyone has a clue? The only test I didn't do is checking the plugs for fire but I am not too sure how to safely do that.

Thanks for helping.

Benji
 
I was able to test the plugs/cables for fire. Turned out I had a tester with a light in a spark plug kit (that I have for my ATV). Both cylinders make fire because the light in the tester is lighting. So this is out of the way. What would make a sea-doo stop after two minutes? I guess it is not be the cooling system because it was tested twice with water hoses by two different garages. I will try to start it later when it has cooled down completely (not that it had time to get very hot for the two minutes it worked).

Thanks.
 
You may have been on the right track with a new lanyard. BUT... the issue is normally in the post. Basically, the little magnetic switch will eventually fail.

So... when it's not starting... do you get "Beeps" when you put the lanyard on the post?
 
Yes all beeps just OK. I did a new key because I lost the old one during transport. I didn't snap the compartment cover correctly and at destination, the key was gone...

Never had a beep issue before and I used the machine for about 30 hours this year without any issues. Sounds like the problem is related to fuel, I can't think of anything else at this point. Unless it is electronic (computer?)?

What eludes me is that I brought the machine to the BRP dealer basically in the same state as it is again now. They told me that they were "able to restart the engine out of the water but that there seemed to be some kind of power issue when hitting the throttle", hence the carburetor job because compression is just OK.

Then it was starting just fine at the dealer but they never tested for more than a few minutes before they do not have an easy access to the water. Brought it home, started it out of the water four times for just a few seconds each time over a 12 hours period. Then put it in the water, started it, gave throttle and it ran OK for one minute then it die on me just like last Monday. It is now back in my backyard and I just can't start it. Even tried pouring a bit of gas inside the cylinder to check if it would help starting it but no luck.

Benji
 
Hope I am allowed a stupid question... Is there an air filter on my Sea-Doo??? I am starting to think that my problem, if not electronic, has something to do with the motor air intake. Smells gasoline all right (like it's flooded with gas). No air would certainly explain why it doesn't start (like choke not releasing ever). Or could it be something like those nozzle bringing gasoline in the carburetor?

I think the issue is either very huge or very simple stupid.

Benji
 
I now know why the dealer thought it was OK: when the machine is very cold in the morning, it starts! It started this morning and it sounded just fine.

This proves that the motor is just fine. Despite the carb being cleaned, I thinbk I am dealing with some fuel or air intake issues. Haven't excluded an electrical problem (humidity) problem as well.

Not sure I will bring it in the water today however as I will probably get the same result as yesterday.

Benji.
 
Try loosening the gas cap? Got pressure when you open cap? Just dies after 2 minutes? Could be sucking air somewhere. Vapor lock tank not taking on air to replace gas used. Check seal on water separator / filter. clean filter cup. Check all gas lines for looseness. Use search function about problem. Could be hours of reading on fuel / carb issues.
 
Yep. Checked most of that except for the cables themselves. A retired mechanics had a look at the fire on the plugs and in his opinion, the spark is not very good. He emitted the opinion that my coil is fried (a second person also thinks that).

So far, I have these hypotheses: a defective sensor (the one that cut of the motor when it is too hot), a choke problem and the coil. I moved the sea-doo to a shady place and I can almost bet that it will start in 3-4 hours but only for one minute.

Benji.
 
If it was a choke problem I don't think it would even make it two minutes. These things will barely run two seconds with the choke on. It's basically just used to prime.


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So we remove the choke as an issue and after a full carburetor clean-up by the dealer they would have picked it up. So I am left with a sensor or the coil (just guessing). Check fuel hose. Perfect condition and no gas spilled at all inside the hold.

Anyone else has an idea? Definitely not the motor as a retired mechanics "listened" to the motor using a large screwdriver and said it was just fine.

I have been charging the battery often this weekend since I cranked it quite often.

Benji.
 
When it quits have you tried putting some gas down the flame arrestor into carb? See if it is a fuel problem. It will start and run on that fuel. Just because they cleaned the carb does not mean it is pumping fuel correctly. The coil may be failing when it's warm. A bad connection somewhere? Computer shutting down? They scan it?
My problem child Ski 13 has drove me nuts for the last year with fuel delivery problems. I have probably read 1/2 the stuff posted here about fuels systems. I just broke down and bought a used carb after a few people said sometimes you just have to replace it. Now it starts first try for the last 2 days. Tomorrow it gets the lake test.
 
The bad news came yesterday from the dealer: compression in one cylinder has fallen down to 90 (in a matter of minutes). To make sure, they used a camera to look inside the cylinder and the piston and cylinder wall are scratched. Bye Bye engine. I guess I will never know what happened. It just happened at 124 hours. Maybe the defective ground and the motor running bad during a week started some kind of chain reaction! Or maybe that sea-doo was not enough used in 10 years (barely 91 hours, meaning that there may have been rust or water left in the engine, I will never know).

Anyway, a brand new engine (well, rebuilt) is on the way from BRP with a one year warranty. The only thing that the dealer is asking is for permission to change oil pump if they think it is necessary. BTW, we didn't want to do just a top-end job since there may be residues in the crank (and I was told it was already noisy).

I should get my machine back just in time for the last two weeks left before Labor Day. But I will be almost 3,000.00$ poorer... I should be good for three years with this new motor.

Benji.
 
Change the oil pump. I didn't change mine when I rebuilt and during breakin the press fitted nipple on the oil pump fell out of the pump and dumped my entire gallon of XPS full synthetic oil into the hull. Fortunately, I still had a mix of oil in the first tank full of gas for break in. (PTL!). I have seen this happen to at least 3 others on this forum since then (3 years ago). A new pump is a small price to pay for added security of a $3k motor.

You should get many years more out of the ski with proper maintenance since you are making the investment.


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Yeah. I was leaning toward that... I will post some pics of the ski when I get it back in good shape (cross my fingers). It is very clean, almost like new except for the back seat behind that is getting a bit worn out (actually, it seems as the vinyl has dried up a bit, front seat is OK, but no worries yet).

This ski still shines. The interior (hold) is pristine. You could drop food in there and still eat it! As for the hull and exterior, the only thing it needs is some gel coat on the keel but still, it is minor. A few scratches on the lower hull on one side (probably due to docking) but nothing for concern. For the motor, I guess I just got unlucky. I bought it used so I can't ell what really happened.

Here is a picture before I decided not to beach it no more...

gtile2003.jpg

Benji
 
When it come down to it you may have less money in it then another used one. We bought 2 - 2000 GTI's with a shorelander double trailer for $800. Two years ago. Any money I put in them is way less then buying 2 more at the real price. Fix it and learn. I learn something every-time I log on to this site!
 
A new GTX 130 HP (basic model) with trailer and taxes costs here around 16,000.00$ CAD dollars. If this ski can give me peace for the next three years, I will more than happy. Even with all repairs, I am still at half price than a new one.

And when I visited the dealer in the past two weeks, there were always some newer skis in the shop for repair... I even saw a Spark with a completely broken jet pump (the kid obviously broke it in the sand).

I looked at the new Spark but decided it was not for me: not enough power, not enough seating and not enough passenger weight limit (something like 350 pounds compared to mine at 535 pounds).

Motor was received this morning. They should replace it on Monday and I will have it back at the latest on Tuesday. I will post pics of this new clean motor!

Benji.
 
Good news, bad news: I was well advised to replace the whole motor because the crank was indeed very damaged. In fact, it was so damaged that the dealer had to replace the "rotary disc" under the crank because it was damaged as well (some pieces fell into it). Also the muffler needs a little bit of welding (just a tiny) so I may get my ski just tomorrow rather than today.

What an ordeal. And I will never know what caused all that. They took some pictures at the dealer, I will try to post them as well.

Benji.
 
Hello again. Here is an update an my new engine rebuild.

My ski came back with the new motor (and new oil pump, and new rotary valve and a rebuilt muffler) and I started break-in period yesterday. My tank was full and I added some oil in the gas tank as instructed in the owner's manual. To make sure, I added even more oil than specified (not a very good idea because my plugs would get dirty like crazy).

Anyway, I rode my ski until the tank was almost all empty (1 gallon left out of 20) and then added some new fresh gas today (without oil of course). The oil pump seems to be working just fine because the oil tank is emptying slowly.

Now, that being said, I am still having an issue: the transition between the low speed and the high speed (somewhere between 15 and 20 mph) is not working well. It lags for 3 to 10 seconds). So far I made these observations:

- The emptier the tank, the better it seemed to accelerate this morning, the fuller the tank, the transition between the low speed and the high speed is having issues just like when my tank was full yesterday (I will validate that tomorrow as I will empty my second tank and yes, I am exhausted from riding that much...).
- The ski is very hard to start when cold. It can take up to three minutes to start it. I crank multiple times in short successions and after a while it starts for a second, then two, then three and then it starts. I will try a different method tomorrow using the choke even if I flood it with gas.
- When I accelerate, it gets stuck at 15 mph and doesn't want to go to higher speed unless I pump the throttle and then it will eventually kick in. And when it kicks in, the engine runs like a charm until I decelerate again.
- When the ski is cold, it will accelerate like a bullet. The issue of having trouble to accelerate kicks in after five minutes (see first observation).
- As proposed by some people, I checked my tank cap and even loosened it a bit without any improvement. I have yet to check the gas filter since yesterday. Plugs were changed when I filled the second tank this morning.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the issue is with the carburetor adjustment or with the choke. The only thing I know is that the dealer adjusted the oil mix a little bit higher than it should be. They told me to bring back the ski on Monday if I was still having issues and that they would adjust the carb.

Any suggestions or ideas? Carb need adjustment? There is no more oil in the gas tank or very little so IMO, nothing should be clogged anymore after two hours running the ski with fresh gas.

Thanks for helping.

Benji.
 
It does sound like a carb / fuel issue. I have not gone back and re-read all the post. Were they rebuilt or cleaned?


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Yes, they were cleaned completely just before the engine broke (like 10 minutes before the engine broke). So they transferred the carb to the new engine and adjusted it to the shop manual specs of a new motor. They were not sure however how to set the low (idle) and set it a bit higher because it was running out the water.

Then they did a quick test on a river close by and told me it was fine. Then I added the burn-in period oil in the tank and this issue showed up. Now the tank has only clean gas in it (no more oil I mean or only traces of it) but I am still having a problem in the 15-20 mph range where the ski has issues accelerating (but once it does, it rocks). It is also very hard to start, like bad (will try different technique tomorrow using more choke and less throttle at the risk of flooding it). I will stay close to shore when trying...

Thanks.

Benji
 
Pull the choke a little when it is in the trouble zone on your throttle. It dies or runs worse it's running rich. Open gas cap a bit when it starts acting up. Sounds like it will need more then just an adjustment. More like a carb / carbs rebuild. Bad check valve / air leak / weak fuel pump section / tank vents.
 
If I pull the choke when it happens, engine dies instantaneously. So that would mean too rich (I suspected that). Gas cap doesn't seem to make a difference but I will double check tomorrow (I just loosened it up without a quick fix, that is for sure).

Carbs were completely cleaned up two weeks ago by the dealer with old motor (no parts were changed but they spent two hours cleaning them, maybe the extra oil of burn-in made them dirty again). Tank vents on this model is solely the gas cap (that I was told today by the dealer, checked it up, looks OK to me, event cleaned it up with wd-40).

Fuel pump or carb issue is probably the culprit IMO also (one carb engine). What do you make of motor not starting well (cold) and dying instantly if I pull choke when issue happens?

Thanks.

Benji.
 
Here is an update. I was able to reproduce my problem very quickly on my rebuilt sea-doo. It really seems to be a carb adjustment issue. First it is very hard to start (2 minutes at least) and when it starts it goes fine if I ride it fast (over 20 mph).

But if I let go of the gas and let it run at idle, it will die/flood after a minute or so. I am able to restart it but then it takes a while for the gas flooding to go away (15-20 seconds at least). If I let it on idle for more than 40 seconds and press the throttle gently, it will strongly hesitate or it will die. Sometimes I will be able to not flood the motor but it will take me 15-20 seconds until I can accelerate again and then the high speed acceleration will not kick in very fast.

I had a buddy of mine following me with his ski and he told me that the exhaust "smells to rich".

Time for an adjustment at the dealer (I wish I was more of a mechanics...). Am I making sense?

Benji.
 
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