95 XP Mini-resto updates.

[pawn]

Sigh. Put my ski in the water today to try out the new wear ring I put on it yesterday. First time this season.

Wouldn't start and after a minute of trying, the starter started screaming at me and I pulled the seat and couldn't budge the drive shaft. This motor started fine in my driveway yesterday.

Brought it home and pulled the head and it's definitely completely seized. There was also water in the head (see attached) housing but nothing in the cylinders. Also saw some oil coming out of the exhaust (also attached).

Please tell me what I have to do to save this thing or mitigate the damage.

Also, what the hell caused this? Did I do something wrong? Was the oil not flowing? Why the water in the head?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Matt Braley]

Motor looks fine. The pump may have seized. The water is in the water jacket there because it does not all come out of the cylinder drain. I'd yank the pump back off and see if it rolls over then.

 

[pawn]

Motor looks fine. The pump may have seized. The water is in the water jacket there because it does not all come out of the cylinder drain. I'd yank the pump back off and see if it rolls over then.

I was wondering the same thing (maybe the shaft was out of line or something when I re-inserted the pump). Thanks for 1) the idea where to start and 2) the ray of hope that I don't have a total disaster on my hands.

 

[Matt Braley]

Yeah that's a perfect burn pattern on the top of those pistons, looks like a healthy engine.

 

[pawn]

So yea, nothing wrong with the motor, I'm pretty sure it was the impeller binding on the wear ring. There is some play in the impeller shaft (maybe I can move it a 1/2" in any direction relative to the pump). Is that normal?

The blades of the impeller lightly scrape the wear ring.. Normal? It looks otherwise like it's in decent shape (picture attached but I'm not sure how useful a picture is - hard to see the situation). It turns freely though with it now out of the machine.

What steps can I take so I don't end up going back and forth to the lake to see if this happens over and over? New OEM ring and impeller? I have no idea if the wear ring I bought is OEM, I should have asked. It was from a local dealer (not Sea-doo exclusive though).

Thanks again all for any help.

 

[mikidymac]

THe impeller and wear ring don't look too bad. The driveshaft looks like it is in too far, does it have the rubber bumpers on both ends? Also I would pull the pump cone and see how the oil looks. THere is something hanging the engie up so I would look at the pump really close.

 

[pawn]

THe impeller and wear ring don't look too bad. The driveshaft looks like it is in too far, does it have the rubber bumpers on both ends? Also I would pull the pump cone and see how the oil looks. THere is something hanging the engie up so I would look at the pump really close.

Not sure what you mean by rubber bumpers. There's a small rubber washer between the impeller and pump as shown in the first picture and the second picture shows the whole shaft itself. I don't see bumpers at all (unless you meant the rubber washer). Where would the other one be located (I'm not sure where "both ends" are)?

The gear oil was fine but I only put it in Saturday so not unexpected.

The wear ring I put on is kind of a hard rubber material with a little give or grippiness to it. I have another one I bought online that feels more like fibreglass but I never put in because of your advice to another poster only to use OEM wear rings. I'm thinking of swapping them as the harder material seems less likely to cause a bind.

Never done this before so any advice helps. I did everything I read in thius post: How To: Changing Your Wear Ring

Not sure where I could have gone wrong but obviously something isn't right.

Thanks very much.

 

[mikidymac]

First does the impeller shaft turn easy?

You got a stock wear ring if it feels like rubber and is a god one.

Your driveshaft looks like it is pushed into the impeller too far. At each end of the driveshaft is a hole, there are rubber bumpers that go into each end that set the driveshaft depth into the impeller and PTO.

That rubber washer on the impeller shaft doesn't belong there whatever it is.

 

[pawn]

First does the impeller shaft turn easy?

You got a stock wear ring if it feels like rubber and is a god one.

Your driveshaft looks like it is pushed into the impeller too far. At each end of the driveshaft is a hole, there are rubber bumpers that go into each end that set the driveshaft depth into the impeller and PTO.

That rubber washer on the impeller shaft doesn't belong there whatever it is.

The impeller and shaft turns east. In fact, if I put it in a vice, I can spin the pump around it like I'm cheating at fooseball.

I'm impatient so while I waiting waiting for advice I re-installed the whole thing on the ski and pulled the spark plugs to see if I can hand crank the drive shaft and I can't. The engine will start now (out of the water) but I know I'm going to get the same bad result if I put it in the water because I could easily turn the drive shaft with the plugs out before I changed the wear ring. Somethin' ain't right. I'll pull it again and look for these holes/bumpers but I don't think they're there, I'm pretty sure would have seen that. I'm wondering if the neoprene gasket it interfering, it's not quite as large as the pump/housing opening but I don't see how it could since the impeller blades are recessed into the pump. Very weird.

Thanks man, you're so helpful.

 

[pawn]

First does the impeller shaft turn easy?

You got a stock wear ring if it feels like rubber and is a god one.

Your driveshaft looks like it is pushed into the impeller too far. At each end of the driveshaft is a hole, there are rubber bumpers that go into each end that set the driveshaft depth into the impeller and PTO.

That rubber washer on the impeller shaft doesn't belong there whatever it is.

Yup, it was the gasket. I pull off the gasket and put the pump back on with a little clear silicone (even at the risk of being called a Hillbilly per the howto I posted about ) and I can now easily turn the drive shaft by hand. The wear ring didn't come with a gasket BTW, i used the one that came with the other fibreglass wear ring I ordered online. I only used it because of the harsh wording on the subject in that howto.

There are no rubber bumpers or any holes at all on my shaft. No idea what that means but maybe not every year/model has that?

Thanks again to everyone.

 

[mikidymac]

According to the parts diagram your 1995 XP definitely uses the bumpers.
Please post a picture of the ends of your driveshaft.

 

[pawn]

According to the parts diagram your 1995 XP definitely uses the bumpers.
Please post a picture of the ends of your driveshaft.

I will if I have to pull it off again. Everything's reassembled (for the 3rd time in 24 hours ). Taking her to the lake to see if I'm good (I think so based on the troubleshooting).

Thanks one more time.

 

[pawn]

Lol, dead battery.

Edit: I really hope I didn't ruin my brand new starter yesterday when the impeller was seized. The starter was chattering with a realty high pitch screech when it seized up. I'd hate to have to replace it again, that was no fun.

Gonna have to wait until next weekend to try again with a recharched battery. Long weekend over now.

 

[pawn]

Left my battery on a charger for a few days and brought it to the shop to have it load tested and it's good.

Did a compression test today: 120/118 psi. Sounds like i'm in the range of needing some work but it should still start, especially out of water.

Hooked everything up in the driveway and got the same result I got in the water on Monday: rolls over once and nothing. There's a high pitched screech from what I believe is the starter each time I try. I'm 80% convinced I killed my new starter last weekend when rolling it over and over with the impeller/wear ring/gasket problem I had.

Getting less and less motivating to see this through.

 

[pawn]

Just to follow up, my new starter actually was loose from the engine. I'm not sure how on earth this could have happened but it is exactly what I thought (that the gear was coming loose and spinning). I tightened it up today but it scares me a lot that this could have happened.

Anyway, feels good getting rid of this problem.

 

[mikidymac]

Is it an aftermarket starter?

 

[pawn]

Is it an aftermarket starter?

No, OEM ordered from BRP (through dealer). I don't think there's anything wrong with it, it just came loose from the chassis so it was catching sometimes but the pinion gear was slipping, that's what the crazy high pitch chattering was that I described above. I didn't use any locktite or anything on the bolts when I put it on originally. Not sure if I was supposed to. It must have come loose when I was working this starter so hard when I had that binding issue with the wear ring gasket.

I'll watch the bolts carefully the next couple of outings to make sure it's not coming loose again.

For what it's worth, I also took apart my old starter and cleaned everything. All the connections look good but when I put power to it, it takes a couple of tries before it kicks on and then works fine. Must be an electrical connection bad somewhere. I'm happy with the new starter though: not something I want to be guessing about in the middle of a lake.

Thanks for everything.

 

[mcandrew72]

Here is a photo from the shop manaul of the small rubber bumper. They are in both ends of the shaft. I was told not to run it without them or it may damage the splines or more. It shows putting them in with loctite and that version of loctite is basically super glue.

 

[Digdog]

Just to follow up, my new starter actually was loose from the engine. I'm not sure how on earth this could have happened but it is exactly what I thought (that the gear was coming loose and spinning). I tightened it up today but it scares me a lot that this could have happened.

Anyway, feels good getting rid of this problem.

You likely took a bite out of the ring gear, hopefully it lasts because the engine most always stops at the same spot. Use some loctite (blue) and get the bolts tight , you can feel when the bolt stops turning.

 

[pawn]

You likely took a bite out of the ring gear, hopefully it lasts because the engine most always stops at the same spot. Use some loctite (blue) and get the bolts tight , you can feel when the bolt stops turning.

Geez I hope not. The starter gear seems fine. Time will tell.

Thanks.

 

[pawn]

Well to follow up: took it to the water today to make sure all's well and it's back to champ status. Started with 1 push of the button and started every time thereafter no issues. I only meant to take it out for 15 minutes to moisten the seals and prime hoses but it was such a beautiful day and it's such a fun machine I ended up out for over an hour. First time with a working VTS and tach too. One more fix (fuel sending unit) and I'm done for now. It's a keeper which will make it hard to sell

 

[pawn]

OK so I've renamed this because I think I've done enough work on this machine to feel like I'm in the territory of a pseudo restoration. Got my replacement fuel baffle today (bought off Ebay), tested it, swapped it in and now I have fully working gauges.

Work done to date:

- (Off topic but...) rewired trailer (nothing worked) and changed lights.
- Small cosmetic work (cleaned up some old decals, painted the mold covered steering pad with epoxy paint, not much else).
- Replaced all gauges. None worked and were mostly cracked but all work now.
- New VTS motor.
- VTS "Trim Fix" kit.
- New starter and solenoid.
- New Wear ring.
- New fuel baffle with working sending unit.
- Fixed wiring issues (things disconnected by past owner both in hull and in electrical box).

At this point, literally everything works (except there's no beeper - might get one, wasn't a priority).

What I haven't done:

- I'm bothered by the advice I got above about the drive shaft and the rubber bumpers it's supposed to have (and may have - I really wasn't paying attention). After researching things a bit, I can can say for sure there is rattling in the crank area when I start it up, especially out of water and from the beginning and the boat has always taken on a bit of water since I acquired it (maybe an inch after a couple of hours ride - didn't bother me much). I see now that these bumpers prevent both of these issues. Probably my next task.

- The machine ran so well mechanically that I haven't done a single thing engine-side or carb-wise. Obviously it's coming eventually. I was getting 118/120 compression but I don't trust the cheap tester I bought and I doubt things would run as well as they do if it was that low. I feel good that the numbers are close though.

I'd post a picture but I want to pressure wash it first. I imagine it will look pretty cringeworthy compare to the real restorations I've seen around here so I want it to be at least clean.

Only downside to all of this good news is the dilemma of whether to sell it or keep it. I have taken a shine to it but a) I know more complicated things are coming eventually and I have a lot on my plate and b) It's competing with my new GTI 155 SE.

 

[etemplet]

Your pump venturi is chewed up like the one on my SPI. Matt Braley is hookiing me up with a good one... I Need another MPH Or two to catch my wife. LOL If you don't have the rubber bumpers on each end of the prop shaft your shaft seal is going to leak like hell once in the water. What you are looking for are a "rubber" bumpers on the "each end" of the pump shaft. They push into a hole which helps keep them in position while you install the shaft. Care must be taken so they don't become dislodged during the installation process. Good Luck !!

 

[mikidymac]

The rubber bumpers are on both ends of the drive shaft, not the impeller shaft.

 

[pawn]

Your pump venturi is chewed up like the one on my SPI. Matt Braley is hookiing me up with a good one... I Need another MPH Or two to catch my wife. LOL If you don't have the rubber bumpers on each end of the prop shaft your shaft seal is going to leak like hell once in the water. What you are looking for are a "rubber" bumpers on the "each end" of the pump shaft. They push into a hole which helps keep them in position while you install the shaft. Care must be taken so they don't become dislodged during the installation process. Good Luck !!View attachment 35656

Yeah, I saw the damage to the venturi but it doesn't seem to affect performance (or at least there's no cavitation) so I'll just live with it.

The bumpers are problematic only because I didn't realize I might not have them until mikidymac was good enough to mention it and I already had things back together when I understood what he meant. I've already decided to order new ones and gamble pulling it apart again. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed them (I didn't) and given the rattle I can hear and water leak, I'm about 80% sure I don't have them.

Thanks for info.