Crank-case oil change...

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Goingtobeapilot

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So as many of you know I am currently in the process of rebuilding the top end of my 96 787 motor. Right now the cylinders are off getting bored and honed so I've been trying to prepare the ski for reassembly. My question is this: I am afraid of the idea that there could possibly be some water in the crank case which is obviously very bad. I believe its probably a good idea to change the oil at this time. So is it possible to just change it directly from the giant hole where the cylinder heads go? As in could I bypass having to take out that stupid bolt under the engine to access the oil? Any advise is appreciated :)

Thanks again as always!

Dave
 
While you're in there I would change the counterbalance shaft oil. Here's a thread about it, it's for a 951 but yours is similar. The article says use 30 wt. motor oil however the manual says full synthetic injector oil, I would use the injector oil. Also your engine probably doesn't have the threaded plug, but with the cylinders off you shouldn't have any problem sucking the old oil out.

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?36426-Changing-Crankcase-Oil-947-951-engine

I wouldn't disassemble the lower half just get anything out of the crankcase that you can, suck it out with a turkey baster, small pump shop rags. Also get a pickup magnet, since the case is aluminum the magnet should pick up anything metal.

http://www.harborfreight.com/multi-use-transfer-pump-66418.html

Lou
 
Yep... what he said.

BUT... if it was my engine, and I was worried about water being in it somewhere... I would remove the lower half, and give it a full inspection. If you don't... and there is an issue... you could have the engine scatter, and the money spent on the new top-end will be wasted.
 
Yep... what he said.

BUT... if it was my engine, and I was worried about water being in it somewhere... I would remove the lower half, and give it a full inspection. If you don't... and there is an issue... you could have the engine scatter, and the money spent on the new top-end will be wasted.

Tony, he had a torn cylinder to crankcase gasket, we're pretty sure that's where the water was coming in.

Lou
 
Ok... I guess I missed part 1 of this thread. But... if it was my ski, I wouldn't guess about anything. An extra couple hours of work now can save a lot of time and money later.

With that said... there is nothing wrong with doing just a top end in the hull, if there are no other concerns, and the problem was found.
 
So basically the answer is yes, I can just suck the oil out from the giant hole where the cylinder heads were... But how much oil should I put back in? I don't see that anywhere in my manual.
 
There should be no oil in the crankcase itself. The oil reservoir for the counter-balance shaft, 1 oz. It wouldn't hurt to squirt a little pre-lube, injection oil on the crank and rod bearings.

Lou

Added: How much oil is in the crankcase? Is the oil gray color? The reason I'm asking is if there is a lot of oil it could mean leaky crank seals. If it's gray color it's probably water mixed with the oil.

Lou
 
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Well I guess there really isn't just a pool of oil or anything... What I'm talking about is when I move the rods up and down, the oil that kind of comes up with the rods out of the lower end. It looks like its oil intended just to lube the lower end.... And yes it is a little grey so I assume there probably is some water in there. Well so where is this bold on the 787 engine to access the oil as opposed to the 947 engine thats in that post?


I was just reading in this article: http://www.seadoosource.com/reservoircheck.html That there isn't a fill port on the 1995/96... But looking back I see that you already told me that in a previous post. So What would be the rough process of changing the oil without this threaded fill port?
 
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In a 2 stroke... there is no pool of oil to lube the lower half. It's mixed with the fuel, and leaves a film. That makes me think about what Lou is saying. (Leaky seals) If this is the original 16 year old crank... it's probably time to replace it. I hate to be the bearer of bad news... but I've seen it a bunch of times... especially with the higher HP engines. The top end gets replaced... and the old lower half gives out in a few rides.

OK... in the center of your engine, there is a set of gears that get oil from the injection tank. The oil in the gear case should not be mixing with the internals of the engine. At face value, a leaky center seal is superficial. BUT, when that is coupled to an old crankshaft... it's a sign that the bearings could be warn to the point that they are moving. (not holding the crank true) The next problem will be that your end seals will be leaking (air) and that will cause the top end to cook it self because of a lean run.

Now... coming back to your comment about the oil being "Greasy." That's not good. If there is water in it... there can be water in the counterweight gears. This is a 2 fold problem. First, the water could be etching the center bearings... and rusting the counter gears. Both will lead to a short life.


If I'm off base here... I will keep to myself. I just don't want to see someone put the $$$ into a new top end, and have the engine blow because the clues for other damage were over-looked.

In your 800 engine, there is a service port in the wall of the crank housing... in the PTO jug. You can put a hunk of wire down it... like a dip stick... to see the condition of the oil. If there is any sign of water, the engine case needs split.
 
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Wow that doesn't sound to good. So is it a possibility that the oil I'm seeing is leftover from combustion? Seeing as how the oil is mixed with the fuel to lube everything in the top half... But even if its irrelevant to this situation, how would you change the oil if there is no threaded fill port on this year? Would you literally have to take the whole darn thing apart? And Lou to answer your question, there really isn't much oil visible. In fact you can't even see it unless you spin the crank shaft a few times and then you can see fresh shiny oil on it...

BTW I know you said that there in fact is a fill port on the 787 motor but I'm still not sure either way because I've read that the 1995 and 1996 versions of this motor did not have this feature yet.......
 
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on a 96 800 engine... there is no real service port. The only oil the counterbalance will get, is during a rebuild. The original thought was, that you use 2-stroke oil on the initial fill... and then leftover combustion oil will dribble down the hole in the crankcase... and keep it topped off. In 98... along with the 951 engine... they got a legit port to check. It's still in a bastard location... but it's on the outside of the engine.

OK... if you have clean, shinny oil on the crank... that can be normal. BUT... there will be just a tiny amount in the bottom of the engine. If there is a "Measurable" amount... that's not good. OR... if there is ANY milkyness to it... that's not good either.

Since we aren't there... this is a call you will have to make on your own.
 
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Doing just a top end on just about any watercraft motor is asking for trouble. Out of the 100s of engines I have tore down maybe 1 or 2 were still in good enough shape to reuse.
 
Tony & Nick, There's been about three threads on this rebuild, one thing in a previous thread which may or may not be important, there's only 67 hours on this ski.

Lou
 
In watercraft hours really dont mean anything. If it wasnt WELL taken care of, or it sat with water in the motor for any period of time...one bad bearing is all it takes to be tearing that motor down again.

The fact you are having to fix anything at 65 hours should be a glaring reason IMO.
 
The only reason I am completely tearing the entire head down is because of a bad gasket. Everything else was in pretty good shape but I had decided to do a full rebuild because I had everything completely taken apart. I'm not saying your wrong about expecting it to blow up in the future but I do sort of agree with Lou. My experience level isn't very high so unless I absolutely have to, I can't tear apart the bottom end. If worst comes to worst I think I would rather put it back together and sell it. If I'm out of place please let me know but still nobody has answered my question... Is there a threaded fill port on the 1996 787 motor?

EDIT: Thank you DrHonda for actually answering my question. So I agree with what you said, there is not a measurable amount of oil. But its obvious that somehow that bottom end gets lubed.
 
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So going back and reading everything again, How would the oil that is usually changed through that fill port on the 1998 and newer models be changed on the older ones without it? Seems like a pretty stupid design to me lol
 
It doesn't get changed. It just gets installed during bottom end rebuild. And yes, it's a bad design.
 
Thanks everybody for the help. Lou explained it to me in a different thread and I officially understand it now lol thanks again for all of the help
 
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