2006 Sea Doo Challenger 180 impeller upgrade...need assistance

[gato760]

Hello Sea Doo community,

I have a 2006 Sea Doo Challenger 180 that I just recently purchased. I took out to San Vicente Reservoir last week and it ran like crap. The boat idles perfectly fine and it seems everything else is working fine. The issue happens when I go to increase throttle the boat starts to rev higher (normal) but the boat will not plane. I tried moving some weight to the from my wife and kids and it took a while but eventually started moving. From what I have read on these forums people that have had similar issues seem to relate it to something involving the jet pump. I decided to take off the jet pump and I noticed a couple things on the impeller and wear ring. Could the issue be related to the damage seen on the impeller and wear ring (see attached photos)? I also have blades missing on top from the jet pump support.

Also if I need to replace them what is the best impeller and wear ring for increasing acceleration? I do not mind to lose some top speed if I can get up and go faster.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Regards
-Felix

 

[anshad]

Yeah, there are certainly some pretty nice gouges on that impeller. As for the ring, it also has a few decent dings based on the picture. If it was working before and has just recently started doing this, I would certainly venture to say that a fresh wear ring and either a new impeller, or a attempting to clean that one up would solve a lion's share of your issues. Just remember that that little "fan blade" is powering an almost 2,000 pound or more boat. Its amazing how touchy that area of the boat can be.

 

[gato760]

Hi Anshad, thanks for taking time to read and comment on this thread. Any ideas on what performance impeller I should buy that would give me more get up and go?

Regards

 

[kernal]

Looks like the plastic fins have been busted out of the front housing, I'd finish the job and cut them off and sand so the area is smooth. The impeller and ring are beat up. What HP is your motor, I generally just recommend the stock units as the 180 should accelerate to top speed quickly if it's the 215 or 255.

 

[gato760]

Hi Kernal,

Thanks for your response. The top 3 fins are broken, but the rest are fine. Should I get rid of just the broken ones or all of them?

The boat has the supercharged 4-TEC 215 hp. I don't think they made a 255 hp engine in 2006, just the 185 hp and 215 hp.

 

[kernal]

Actually, they are all damaged, check this thread.
Newbie C180 jet pump questions

I'd remove the rest. Since you have the 215hp, I'd go with the stock impeller and see if your happy. If you still want more, ET 127 wheel or xcharger upgrade, plus injectors, the 255hp impeller, then an external intercooler.

All depends on budget

 

[gato760]

Actually, they are all damaged, check this thread.
Newbie C180 jet pump questions

I'd remove the rest. Since you have the 215hp, I'd go with the stock impeller and see if your happy. If you still want more, ET 127 wheel or xcharger upgrade, plus injectors, the 255hp impeller, then an external intercooler.

All depends on budget

I am not really looking to upgrade the engine right now since it seems to be running fine. I was hoping there is an impeller that gives a little more thrust of the initial go (acceleration) even if it meant sacrificing top speed.

 

[kernal]

There probably is, pm hfgreg, or call/email pwc muscle for a recommendation. The biggest issue is getting a setup that will do what you want, and not loose max rpm etc.

 

[gato760]

There probably is, pm hfgreg, or call/email pwc muscle for a recommendation. The biggest issue is getting a setup that will do what you want, and not loose max rpm etc.

Thanks Kernal!

 

[C9R0J0]

I've found the Solas SRX-CD 13/18 or 14/19 to have better hole shot that the stock impeller. The stock impeller tends to cavitate more with rapid throttle advancement out of the hole.

I'm currently running the 14/19, but I think I'll swap back to the stock today for comparison.

 

[gato760]

I've found the Solas SRX-CD 13/18 or 14/19 to have better hole shot that the stock impeller. The stock impeller tends to cavitate more with rapid throttle advancement out of the hole.

I'm currently running the 14/19, but I think I'll swap back to the stock today for comparison.

Hi C9R0J0 - Thanks for the recommendations. I have seen different numbers used like 13/18 or 14/19, but I have no idea what it means. Do you know what the difference is between the 13/18 and 14/19?

Regards

 

[C9R0J0]

That refers to the leading and trailing edge pitch. The stock is as 10/21. That's not a direct comparison though as different impeller manufacturers seem to measure impellers differently. The second number essentially governs your max rpm. For an example, an 18 will spin easier than a 19 for the same HP, thus increasing your max rpm, but it pushes less water. So......... that may or may not increase your top speed, it's complicated haha. I'd get more into it, but I'm about to go boating!

One more thing, I have both the 13/18 and 14/19 and I can honestly say the difference isn't noticeable.

 

[gato760]

That refers to the leading and trailing edge pitch. The stock is as 10/21. That's not a direct comparison though as different impeller manufacturers seem to measure impellers differently. The second number essentially governs your max rpm. For an example, an 18 will spin easier than a 19 for the same HP, thus increasing your max rpm, but it pushes less water. So......... that may or may not increase your top speed, it's complicated haha. I'd get more into it, but I'm about to go boating!

One more thing, I have both the 13/18 and 14/19 and I can honestly say the difference isn't noticeable.

Thanks for the info! I am trying to get more initial thrust/acceleration and I am ok with losing top end speed. I wish this was more like gearing. I used to use the 520 conversion on my street bikes to get more low end torque and it hurt the top end some.

Have fun boating!!

 

[C9R0J0]

Well.......I ran the stock 10/21 all day yesterday, putting on about 90 miles. It's nowhere near as good on the bottom end as either Solas. Today I'm going to try the 13/18.

 

[gato760]

Well.......I ran the stock 10/21 all day yesterday, putting on about 90 miles. It's nowhere near as good on the bottom end as either Solas. Today I'm going to try the 13/18.

That is good to know. What I am more impressed with is the fact that you are boating and it is not even the weekend! Have fun and be safe!

 

[gato760]

So I finally got the impeller off. Just found out that it is an aftermarket Solas Concord impeller 14/19. The blades look like a snaggle-toothed wrecker had fun eating them up. What do you gentlemen think about the blades on the jet housing? Should I replace the housing too?

Thanks again in advance for an advice!

 

[C9R0J0]

My fins look the same way, I'd just leave it as is. Some say to file them down flush, but I haven't bothered. I suspect any gains made by that wouldn't be worth the effort.

What's the other side look like? The plastic on mine was bulged up right after the pump insert shoe. I used a heat gun and pushed it flush again.

 

[gato760]

My fins look the same way, I'd just leave it as is. Some say to file them down flush, but I haven't bothered. I suspect any gains made by that wouldn't be worth the effort.

What's the other side look like? The plastic on mine was bulged up right after the pump insert shoe. I used a heat gun and pushed it flush again.

Hi C9R0J0, There are major dings and pits in the blades of the impeller housing. I don't think the plastic blades on the jet pump support are an issue, but these aluminum blades on the impeller housing are beat up really bad. You don't think the impeller housing blades look too beat up?

By the way, are you using a different intake grate than the stock one?

 

[C9R0J0]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I see what your talking about. My stator vanes were in simular condition. I just filed them. I did end up buying a used pump in good condition off eBay becasue mine needed a rebuild and I wasn't sure if the vanes effected performance. There was no noticeable change. Hole shot, top speed etc remained the same. So I'd say file the rough edges off and stick it back on.

I have a 07 fixed grate on now. The pump support insert broke off and that part is discontinued. I had to grind down the front to make it fit. I could of just cut the grate off the 07 part and continued to use the ICS, but I found it never worked right anyway. The rear of the fixed grate on the 07 part is exactly the same as the 06 part.

 

[gato760]

Hi C9R0J0, I will try filling the stator vanes to see if that helps.

Thanks again!

 

[Dr Honda]

Sorry I was absent on this... but I'm not really a 4stroke guy. (i'm cheap. LOL)

Anyway... it looks like the last owner liked to run shallow, and beat that pump up. BUT, I've seen way worse. TO be honest... it's not all that bad. The wear ring has some wear... but I don't think it would cause the cavitation you are describing. But lets start at the beginning.


The first thing I would do, is take a small grinding tool, and clean up the stator veins. A die grinder is good... or a Dremel. If you don't have one... there are import versions for less than $20 and they come in handy for things like this. Put a pointed grinding tool on it, and clean the burs off the stator. Then, put the sanding drum on it, and make sure there are no sharp edges on the plastic veins in the mount. And finally... carefully clean the sharp points of the face of the impeller. You don't have to try to grind away the face to the point where the divets are gone (it would wind up being out of balance)... just take off the jagged edge. If there is a bent spot... try to support it, and flatten it back out with a hammer.


Now.... the kind of caviation you are describing can only be casue by 2 things. One... an air leak, and Two... blocked pump.

Lets start with the blocked pump. If you suck up a plastic shopping bag... a chunk or rope... or even a hunk of wood, and it gets jammed into the pump. Those things will keep you from going. BUT... there's no moving around to get you on plane. Also... those things will cause horrid vibration. It's normally obvious when this happens. You will be running just fine... and next time you throttle up... you get vibration, and little thrust.


The other side is the air leak. If you've ever had a hole in a drinking straw... you will know exactly what I'm talking about. If not... next time you are at McDonalds... poke a hole in your drink straw, and try to take a drink. (you will get almost nothing even on a small hole) Same thing happens on a jet drive. That air leak can happen around the shoe, around the pump, or most likely... the carbon seal. Since your pump has been beat up some... take a good long look at the plastic shoe in the hull. We have to verify air isn't bypassing the inlet. Also... when you put that pump back on the mount... make sure the seal is in place. If yours has the neoprene seal... replace it. If you have the rubber seal... make sure it's not hard and deformed.

Now for the final (major) issue... the carbon seal. It's a good design for safety, but has some of it's own issues. The Seadoo driveshaft seal is a very simple carbon seal system. There is a fixed stainless ring on the driveshaft. There is a carbon ring that rides on that stainless ring... and a rubber, corrugated boot that acts as a spring to push the carbon seal into the stainless ring. The lake water comes into the boot, and up the face of the seal. It cools, and lubes the seal. (that's why it is impossible to have a Seadoo without water in the bilge. It leaks by design) this is also why it's bad to run a Seadoo on the trailer. (kills the carbon seal)

This seal is very safe, in the fact that is has almost no chance to have a catastrophic failure. it simply wears, and starts to have leaking issues. It also has zero maintenance. In most driveshaft seals... there are bearings, and rubber seals. These "Stuffing Boxes" need to be checked, and greased after every few outings. The issue is... if you don't take care of it... water gets in the bearings... rusting them... and when it rips loose... it leaves a rather large hole in the back of the boat... and then it sinks.


So... at this point, I'm going to assume you have a 12 year old seal. It's time to replace it. The wear comes on the face... and that drops the pressure from the boot. It comes on the inner edge... and makes a bypass point (thin spot where air can come in) and the boot itself will get stiff, and lose tension. Oh... and the stainless ring has a couple O-rings inside. Those can split, and allow air to come in. So... order a new carbon ring, O-rings, and boot.


If you want to verify this is the issue... have a helper pull the boot back, and put a blob of waterproof grease on the face of the carbon seal. Then, put a fat zip tie in one of the valleys of the boot. (it will add tension and keep it from getting sucked back) DO NOT use anything hard to put the grease in, or pry back the seal. It is a hunk of soft carbon. You can crack it easily.


Hope that helps.

Oh... and for a question you posted above... a Skat-Trak "Swirl" impeller will always give you the best out-of-the-hole performance. (solas is normally better for top speed)

 

[gato760]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your detailed input. After reading your input I decided since I have the jet pump out already that I am going to change out the carbon ring too. That boot is really difficult to get back (stiff) to expose the c-clip. I ended up ordering the drive shaft floating ring tool. I have ordered a new OEM carbon ring, floating ring, o-rings, c-clip, and boot.

Attached is a photo of the the carbon ring and boot. Thanks for all of your advice, it is greatly appreciated!

 

[gato760]

I want to thank you all for your input; anshad, kernal, C9R0J0, and Dr Honda. My wife and kiddos thank you too, especially since they now think I am a mechanical master...

UPDATE: I changed out the carbon ring, floating ring, boot, o-rings, c-clip, impeller, and wear ring. The difference was night and day from the last time I went out in terms of performance. I had 5 of us on the boat and we did not experience any cavitation.

I have something else that came up now that my boat takes off and hits top speed easily. It literally flies and catches air very easy too. I am guessing the boat is very light up front. To test this I had my uncle take off in his Utopia and I followed him and what I noticed is that his wake does not seem to shoot up as much as my boat's wake does. Is there anyway to adjust the nozzle to shoot down more so it pushes the nose down?

Regards
Felix

 

[C9R0J0]

There is an reversible offset bushing in the bottom nozzle bolt. Check and see which position it's currently in.

I find the 180 to be a rough riding boat in the chop due to it's length and probably hull design. The Utopia is longer so I'd assume it would ride better.

 

[gato760]

There is an reversible offset bushing in the bottom nozzle bolt. Check and see which position it's currently in.

I find the 180 to be a rough riding boat in the chop due to it's length and probably hull design. The Utopia is longer so I'd assume it would ride better.

Below is a photo of the offset bushing and the bottom nozzle bolt (ride plate is to the left in the photo). That looks like it is in the forward position angling the nozzle up??