1995 Twin Speedster oil?

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MPDano

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I believe they are twin 657cc engines. I read somewhere the oil tank holds 2.5 gallons, please correct me if I am wrong.

I am trying to figure out if I need to buy the expensive Seadoo oil or can I just buy the Walmart Supertech 2 stroke oil. I know these are older style engines, just don't want to ruin them if I am required to use a specific 2 stroke oil.

Much Thanks,
Leo
 
You need API-TC oil and not TC-W3 like the cheap walmart stuff. You can run seadoo mineral oil in those which isnt too pricey.

The more important thing is to know what oil is in it now and use the same thing. Many oils do not mix well and can clog up the filters and oil pumps.
 
You need API-TC oil and not TC-W3 like the cheap walmart stuff. You can run seadoo mineral oil in those which isnt too pricey.

The more important thing is to know what oil is in it now and use the same thing. Many oils do not mix well and can clog up the filters and oil pumps.

Thanks for this. What are my choices, maybe links, besides the seadoo oil.
 
I've been using this in my 717's, which have the same requirements as your 657's.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mercury-Quicksilver-Marine-PWC-Full-Synthetic-2-Cycle-Oil/17165296
It's widely reputed to be acceptable but is unnervingly devoid of specifications. I've read old threads on the net from back in the day where Mercury did publish specs for it and back then it supposedly met the Seadoo specs so it is assumed that it still does. But Mercury no longer publishes specs and they won't tell you any if you call for some reason. It's still not super cheap though.

The thing for me is that it's widely available in a town where the closest alternative is an hour away. If I didn't use this stuff I would have to mail order anything else. And I know I would end up in a situation where I ran out and wasn't able to get more and would have to resort to this vs not boating, and this would win every time. :)

If I was able to find something on Amazon that was acceptable in the $20-30/gal range I'd just order in bulk and try to stay on top of it.
 
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Michigan Motorz has this to say about Quicksilver:

  • MerCruiser PWC (Personal Watercraft), marine grade engine oil is engineered for air- or liquid-cooled watercraft engines or engines which specify the use of API-TC type oils including WaveRunner, Sea-Doo and Polaris watercraft.
  • This full synthetic PWC oil utilizes an enhanced rust prevention package with superior anti-scuff properties to ensure the ultimate protection for your engine.
  • Plus specially designed synthetic additives that keep your engine cleaner and operating at peak performance.
  • MerCruiser/Quicksilver PWC 2-stroke, full synthetic oil is not intended for use in engines specifying the use of a TC-W3 engine oil. If your engine manufacturer recommends the use of a TC-W3 engine oil, use MerCruiser/Quicksilver Premium 2-Cycle Outboard Oil.
I would say they are a trustworthy source.

https://www.michiganmotorz.com/stroke-full-synthetic-mercruiser-personal-watercraft-p-7650.html
 
I've been using this in my 717's, which have the same requirements as your 657's.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mercury-Quicksilver-Marine-PWC-Full-Synthetic-2-Cycle-Oil/17165296
It's widely reputed to be acceptable but is unnervingly devoid of specifications. I've read old threads on the net from back in the day where Mercury did publish specs for it and back then it supposedly met the Seadoo specs so it is assumed that it still does. But Mercury no longer publishes specs and they won't tell you any if you call for some reason. It's still not super cheap though.

The thing for me is that it's widely available in a town where the closest alternative is an hour away. If I didn't use this stuff I would have to mail order anything else. And I know I would end up in a situation where I ran out and wasn't able to get more and would have to resort to this vs not boating, and this would win every time. :)

If I was able to find something on Amazon that was acceptable in the $20-30/gal range I'd just order in bulk and try to stay on top of it.

Thanks for this link. I was looking at the same one and my local Walmart carries it for $40.84 a gallon.
 
The SeaDoo Mineral oil is on Amazon Prime for $36 or non-Prime for $32. But for that small a difference I'd rather just use something I can get locally.
 
I use Mystic full synthetic pwc oil. Its around $32 a gallon shipped and the spec sheet is almost identical to the seadoo full syn. You dont need full synthetic in non-rave valve engine like the 657 or 717 though. There are thousands of oil threads if you do a quick search.
 
I use Mystic full synthetic pwc oil. Its around $32 a gallon shipped and the spec sheet is almost identical to the seadoo full syn. You dont need full synthetic in non-rave valve engine like the 657 or 717 though. There are thousands of oil threads if you do a quick search.

It's actually recommended NOT to use full syn in non-rave engines due to the low ash content of the oil.
 
Great info guys. Yes, I went thru plenty of oil threads but way too many opinions and it got very confusing fast. I got Amazon Prime and if the Seadoo mineral is better for my model, then I'll use it. Got link? Just search Seadoo Mineral oil?
 
Great info guys. Yes, I went thru plenty of oil threads but way too many opinions and it got very confusing fast. I got Amazon Prime and if the Seadoo mineral is better for my model, then I'll use it. Got link? Just search Seadoo Mineral oil?

Yes. Search Sea-Doo mineral oil.

The problem with all the oil threads is that they're all years old now and much of the info is outdated. For instance, the current label of the Quicksilver is not mentioned in any of them and that is one of the main ones most would like to consider.
 
Also, the Quicksilver supposedly is biodegradable. I've not found anything saying that Sea-Doo mineral oil is. I think that's worth considering. I've unintentionally spilled more of it into the water than I care to admit.
 
Just to verify, this is the best option on my non-rave engine? I have been working on my motors and definitely never saw these big round rave valves on them.

Amazon.com: BRP Ski-Doo Can-Am Sea-Doo XPS New OEM 2-Stroke Mineral Oil 1 Gallon, 779120: Automotive

I believe that's the mineral oil that was referred to above but I honestly can't say what is the "best" oil.

Again, this is where all the oil threads fall short. Because the seadoo oil that most of them refer to is no longer made with the same label. And the current label is not discussed in any of the threads that I've found.
 
Cool, I do appreciate all the help here guys. Now I need to figure out the water flush adapter I need as this 2005 is different than my 2007 adapter.
 
Stick with the Seadoo Mineral oil that you posted, black bottle with the white cap.

THe Quicksilver is now questionable since they no longer publish the spec and saying it is "biodegradabel" points to it being TCW-3 now.

Alos there is no such thing as a dual rated oil (TCW-T and API-TC) as they are completely different specs and additive packages. Easy rule of thumb is if it is blue or green it isn't good in a seadoo.

Your only choices are Seadoo oil (XPS), Amsoil, Mystic and Lucas.
 
Your only choices are Seadoo oil (XPS), Amsoil, Mystic and Lucas.

Can you provide links to the API-TC oils from Amsoil, Mystic, and Lucas please?

I just called Quicksilver to discuss this a bit. This is their official paraphrased statement on the current full-syn PWC oil that we are discussing here:

The Full-Syn PWC currently sold is NOT TC-W3 oil, but is also not rated as an API-TC. It is a low-ash oil.

Because I like to learn, I started reading about the TC-W3 and API-TC certifications themselves, which is kind of interesting. This was a very informative read:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=printthread&Board=13&main=35988&type=thread
Here's my best summary, feel free to correct me or add:
- Additives are added to 2-stroke oil to help burn away residue after every power cycle.
- Lower ring land temp engines work better with ashless additives. The market for these is much larger than engines with high-temp ring lands, so that's why you can easily find TCW3 oils.
- Higher temp ring land engines burn the residuals away better with low-ash additives. (Heavy metal additives, calcium and magnesium, that are not great for the environment.) The market for these types of oils is very small.
- Getting an API oil rating is expensive. About $75,000. It is not worth it for most manufacturers given the limited market. It is worth it to get a TCW3 rating since the market is so much bigger.
- Bombardier is one of the few, if not only, manufacturers that paid for the API-TC rating.
- QSPWC exceeds JASO FD standards (JASO, TCW3, and API are just three different oil rating companies. ) You can look up JASO FD specs here: JASO FD | Lubrizol Additives 360
- Ash content is determined by charring the oil, treating the residue with sulfuric acid, and evaporating to dryness, the result being expressed as % by mass.
- JASO FD does require a min resulting ash content of at least .18%.

So long story short, QSPWC probably is OK for our engines but you will never get an API-TC cert for it because it is not economically feasible for QS to purchase. I think what QS is basically saying is that they made the oil to meet API specs but didn't pay to get the actual certification.

Additionally, QSPWC COULD NOT POSSIBLY get a TC-W3 certification because that cert requires no ash, whereas QSPWC does contain ash per the JASO specs they quote.

So now I'm on a mission to find out if those Amsoil, Mystic, and Lucas oils do in fact carry the API cert. Because, if not, there's probably no reason to believe they are any better or different than QSPWC. They're pretty small companies with low volume, which means paying for the certification would be even less economically viable for them.
 
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I did see a Lucas one at my local Oreillys. It does say meets or exceeds Api-tc, then it also mentions Tc-w3.
 
I did see a Lucas one at my local Oreillys. It does say meets or exceeds Api-tc, then it also mentions Tc-w3.

That's the thing though. "Meets or exceeds" does not mean "is certified." It means, "We developed this to meet or exceed that standard but didn't pay for the actual cert."

Bob the Oil guy, in the article I linked, claims that Bombardier is the ONLY manufacturer that has actually paid for the API certification. It's an old article though so I'm curious to find out if newer oils have come out that are officially certified.

ISO = European Standards
JADO = Japanese Standards
TCW3 and API = American Standards.

Just because they're different companies does not mean that the oils can't meet or exceed standards of more than one of them.

Also the API-TC standard is extremely old and basically obsolete for all modern engines. There is almost no reason for any company to even seek out that standard anymore other than specifically for old Rotax engines that haven't been made in 20+ years.
 
Here are all the Amsoil, Lucas, and Mystic oil that claim to meet or exceed API-TC:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-prod...2-stroke-racing-oil/?code=TDR#fullDescription
http://docs.mystiklubes.com/msds_pi/M20089.pdf
http://docs.mystiklubes.com/msds_pi/M20077.pdf
https://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/racing-formula-2-cycle-oil
https://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/semi-synthetic-2-cycle-oil
Note that not a single one boats the API certification, only that it meets or exceeds it.

I also found this:

https://lucasoil.com/products/2-cycle-oil/2-cycle-land-sea-oil-tc-w3
This is a TCW3 ashless oil that claims to also meet API-TC specs. I do not see how this is possible as the two specs are mutually contradictory. Unless I'm missing something, it's kind of disturbing that a company whose sole business model is lubricants would make that claim. I would definitely stay away from this stuff.

My next curiosity is the SeaDoo Mineral Oil. I'm still searching but I'm not seeing where even that carries the API certification anymore ...
 
Maybe someone can help me find it, but I can't find a single official reference where either XPS Synthetic or XPS Mineral Oil makes any claim as far as API-TC OR TCW3. The bottle labels don't mention it at all. All I can find is old claims on old internet discussions with no official citing. I don't know when, but the XPS oils themselves have undergone formula changes over the years while keeping the names the same. So even if the uncited old references were true back then, they don't necessarily apply now.
 
You need API-TC oil and not TC-W3 like the cheap walmart stuff. se the same thing. Many oils do not mix well and can clog up the filters and oil pumps.

Is this even correct? I don't own a motor with RAVE valves, but I can find people on the net that say both API and TCW3 are the "spec" oil for the non-RAVE engines.

The manuals are useless because all the say to use is "Bombardier Injection Oil" which is discontinued.

Reading through the history of the engines, it sounds like the low-ash / API oil came about due to the RAVE valves on the 787, but before that they were using shless TCW3 on the non-RAVE engines.

So is API actually the WRONG oil for Non-Rave engines? This gets more confusing by the minute ...
 
Is this even correct? I don't own a motor with RAVE valves, but I can find people on the net that say both API and TCW3 are the "spec" oil for the non-RAVE engines.

The manuals are useless because all the say to use is "Bombardier Injection Oil" which is discontinued.

Reading through the history of the engines, it sounds like the low-ash / API oil came about due to the RAVE valves on the 787, but before that they were using shless TCW3 on the non-RAVE engines.

So is API actually the WRONG oil for Non-Rave engines? This gets more confusing by the minute ...
And then you throw in the people who manage to run the TCW oil with no ill effects lol. FWIW I have run the Mercury oil for several years on different Seadoos(587, 717) and had no issues.
 
Here are the basics...
1. There is no such thing as a dual rated oil, TCW-3 and API-TC.
2. Seadoo Requires and needs a API-TC rated oil. 587, 650 & 720 only need conventional API-TC so your only option is the Seadoo XPS 2T CARB Mineral. The 580-720 can also run semi-synthetic like the Lucas 2-Cycle oil (NOT Land & Sea) or Full Synthetic like the Amsoil Interceptor or Dominator and Seadoo XPS 2T E-TEC, Mystic JT-4 and . The 787 & 951 have to have full synthetic API-TC.
3. The TCW-3 oils do not have the lubrication or film strength of an API-TC oil. This has proven to cause rotary valve scuffing and piston damage in the seadoo engines. This has also proven to cause inner crank seal leaks in 580-787 engines and piston failures in the DI engines.
4. Never start an oil thread.
Prices... per gallon.
XPS Carb 2T $27.99
XPS 2T E-TEC $42.50
Lucas 2-Cycle $30.00
Mystic JT-4 $25
Amsiol Interceptor $45
Amsoil Dominator $51
 
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