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  1. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #1
    Junior Member WITZ352's Avatar
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    Default Help!!!!!!!!! 2000 seadoo challenger

    I am new and wanted to say hello! I am also in desperate need of some help too...........I own a 2000 sea doo challenger 2000 with the mercury v6 m2 engine. Lately, sometimes when i cut engine off, it wont start back up. sometimes its after two days of boating, sometimes, its within the first hour of boating. turns over but no start. i changed out the "thumper" fuel pump (feeds fuel to primary pump), and checked fuel pressure, and checked spark. everything SEEMS to be ok?......hard to determine spark and fuel pressures when its just turning over.....I have been told it could be ignition control module, stator, primary pump, or even the rev limiter module............all of which are hundreds and hundreds of dollars with no garuntee of fixing issue. there are no repair shops that can diagnose the issue because it is so intermitt. plus it only happens under load, in the water........i have ran boat for hours on trailer, and never had an issue...............im so frustrated, im about to just sink the damn boat. can anyone help??? heard of this problem? Thanks

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    This is the problem with the Merc boats... they only used that drive for a couple years, and we (as a group) don't know much about them, and the fuel system is so convoluted... it's hard for the average person to check.


    If you join as a premium member, you can download the engine manual for the Merc. It has a bunch of troubleshooting guilds in it.


    As far as a dealer... SeaDoo isn't going to help you. You will need to take it to a Merc Outboard dealer. BUT... they will bend you over, and give it to you dry just to look at it. (most of the time)


    OK... with that out of the way, I would say to take it to the closest lake, and go ride around until the problem happens again. At that point... you can quickly check for a spark. (carry an extra, clean plug)

    If you get spark, then check fuel pressure at the fuel rail, just before the regulator. (on the mix tank) You could have a regulator going bad, and it's not allowing pressure to build in the injector rail. (the pumps would all still be pumping)
    Tony

    PM or post for help. Don't leave questions in my profile box. (i never check it)

    I'm not going to be able to do vinyl or carbs for a while. Starting my new job is taking a lot of time

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  4. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #3
    Junior Member WITZ352's Avatar
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    took it to merc m2 specialist and he guessed the thumper pump that fills canister to primary pump to start. although this seemed to work for the first two days, engine ended up doing the same thing. turning over but no start. took all plugs out. black and wet. cleaned them all up and still no start.

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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    I have been told it could be ignition control module, stator, primary pump, or even the rev limiter module............all of which are hundreds and hundreds of dollars with no garuntee of fixing issue.
    Whoa, whoa, whoa... don't just throw money at replacing various things randomly. That's what lowlife dealers with no education do, just swap out expensive modules at your expense. Let's put some thought into this instead, shall we?

    There are no repair shops that can diagnose the issue because it is so intermitt.
    That's true of any problem on anything. If it doesn't happen when the "expert" is around, he can't fix what doesn't appear to be broken.

    plus it only happens under load, in the water........i have ran boat for hours on trailer, and never had an issue
    Are you SURE being under load makes a difference? Have you actually tried idling it for "hours" while docked in the water? Just asking.

    So let's ask ourselves what is different between running on the trailer for "hours" and running "under load in the water". One big difference is that the RPM's never get very high on the trailer because you're not supposed to rev the engine past idle (some Mercury references say up to 2000 RPM's is OK). That means 1) very little fuel flow is occurring, 2) the engine never really gets warm, and 3) you have less vibration. Those things can change behavior a LOT.

    That said, let's back up and consider your symptom: It cranks but won't start. Does it give any hint at all of trying to start (coughing, sputtering, almost but not quite starting?) or does it just crank and crank as if dry? Diagnosis will be very different if the engine just cranks, or if it almost-but-not-quite-starts.

    Presuming it just cranks forever: After cranking for a while, have you removed a plug to see if it's getting fuel? If the plug is dry, you have a fuel problem. If it's wet, at least you have some fuel.

    Presuming you have fuel: Are you getting a spark when this problem occurs? I know you said you checked spark, but did you check it when this problem is actually occurring? Get an inline spark tester (cheap at Harbor Freight) and have someone else crank while you watch the tester. Check all six plugs.

    If you have fuel, and compression, and spark, SOMETHING should happen. We know you have compression because the engine runs sometimes. You need to determine if you have fuel in the cylinders and spark at the plugs.

    Here's an early idea: If you have fuel but no spark when this problem occurs, it could be as easy as a failing kill switch. Those fail occasionally, and they operate by grounding out the CDI modules that drive the plugs. You can prove this to yourself by leaving the tether off and trying to start the engine - it will crank and crank but never start (sound familiar?).

    There are other things that also ground out the CDI's. We can easily diagnose that once we know if you have spark and fuel when the problem is occurring. Please check those things and report back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    took it to merc m2 specialist and he guessed the thumper pump that fills canister to primary pump to start.
    Hmm, he "guessed"? Some "specialist". Will he refund your money now that his "guess" was proven incorrect?

    turning over but no start. took all plugs out. black and wet. cleaned them all up and still no start.
    OK, so you have fuel. That's good.

    Have you checked for spark at the plugs when the problem is occurring?

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  7. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #6
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    thank you so much in your interest in my issue. may take me a few replys to get to all your questions. i have disabled kill switch to rule that out. problem happens with kill switch connected and disconnected.

    specialist had to guess cuz problem didnt happen with him there. he didnt charge me anything to look at it because he didnt find anything. it seems only when towing skiers, and passengers aboard is when it is most likely to happen but that isnt always the case. there really isnt any reasoning behind why it does what it does, when it does it. it used to no start every 10-15 starts, but since i replaced pump, i ran it for two days without a problem until the end of day two..........probably about 30 starts total until no start. i pulled all plugs this past weekend and cleaned them but it didnt help. plugs were very dark and very wet. engine compartment smelled like gas.

    i have ran boat for hours in and out of water trying to get it to not start back up, but no luck.....

    i have merc engine manual and have tried all trouble shooting suggestions. no luck. my father is a master technician for 35+ years but not with boats. he is very familiar with engine issues tho. he actually rebuilt this motor when it overheated and locked up. we went out for an entire day and drove boat around to try and get it to act up so we could diagnose, but it never messed up.

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  8. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #7
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    fuel in the clyds.........no sure???? im guessing so since plugs are soaked???

    spark? i believe so...........i have an inline led spark tester hooked to one of plugs and it lights up, but weak. it seems brighter when engine is actually running.

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    when it stopped starting this past weekend. i did check spark with tester and with plug grounded out. led was not bright with tester and spark was not bright on plug. seemed weak

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    engine compartment smelled like gas.

    [/QUOTE]

    you may have a lil fuel leak too.....have you done a compression test, justa thought...you said mostly when pullin a load!!!!
    Boat's-n-Ho's

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  11. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #10
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    boat has compression. runs great and doesnt overheat. just wont start sometimes.

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  12. #11
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    it seems only when towing skiers, and passengers aboard is when it is most likely to happen but that isnt always the case.
    Those conditions involve higher fuel flow, higher RPM's, and more bumps/vibration than just sitting, idling, or being on the trailer. Those are clues - we just don't know to what, yet.

    i pulled all plugs this past weekend and cleaned them but it didnt help. plugs were very dark and very wet.
    Good. That means you're getting fuel. Try this: When it happens again, remove one plug, dry it completely, put it back in, crank again for 10-15 seconds, and then check the plug a second time. This will confirm you're getting fuel RIGHT THEN, and that it's not left over from the last time the engine ran.

    engine compartment smelled like gas.
    As noted by the other responder, that may indicate a fuel leak. However, the engine runs sometimes so obviously the fuel leak isn't preventing the engine from running. If your fuel lines are the originals they may have deteriorated and need replacing. Rule of thumb is replace fuel lines every five years. I just did mine (after nine years) and the slight fuel smell I had noticed occasionally has vanished. I had no evidence of a fuel leak but the fumes were obviously getting out somewhere. Worry about that after you solve this starting problem.

    Also, the engine compartment will get smelly when you crank like this for a long time without starting because you're running raw, unburned fuel through the engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    problem happens with kill switch connected and disconnected.
    OK, that's one of at least four things I can think of that can short the CDI's to ground. The others are the keyswitch, RPM limiter, and throttle guardian. They all tie into a black-with-yellow-stripe wire that goes to the CDI modules. Any of these devices grounding that wire will stop the engine and prevent it from starting - but they will NOT prevent it from cranking.

    First, please try the dried plug test above to confirm you are getting fresh fuel when the engine won't start.

    Next, you're going to disconnect the CDI grounding circuit. I'm doing this from memory (engine is ~40 miles away) so bear with me.... As you look down at the top of the engine the cylinders are toward the rear of the engine. Above the right bank of cylinders, on the top of the engine, are two black plastic rectangles mounted one over the other. The top module is the RPM limiter. Find its wire bundle and trace along each wire; I believe one of them is already black-with-yellow (the CDI wire). The CDI wire crosses toward the center of the engine where it meets up with other such wires and connects together with them. From that junction, a single black-with-yellow goes back toward the cylinder heads, spark plugs, and CDI modules.

    That last wire, the one going toward the plugs, is the one you want to disconnect. IIRC you may have to disconnect two connectors to isolate that wire, but they're all bullet connectors that just pull apart. Your goal is to electrically isolate that wire so nothing is connected to it. That way nothing in the boat can ground the CDI's. Keep track of what you disconnect so you can reconnect it later.

    CAUTION: Once you do this the normal methods of protecting and stopping the engine won't work anymore. Stopping the engine will rely solely upon the keyswitch killing power to the ECU, which will in turn stop firing the injectors and the plugs. The engine may not stop instantly, so be prepared. Also, you will have no overrev protection so if you do this on the water do NOT go over waves that could bring your jet intake out of the water. Basically, just use your head.

    Isolate that wire, then try starting. Report back!

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  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    boat has compression. runs great and doesnt overheat. just wont start sometimes.
    I can't remember - does this problem ever occur when the engine is stone cold? Or only after it has warmed up a bit?

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  14. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #13
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    NEVER HAS DONE IT COLD. only after running for a while. sometimes only after running for 20-30 min, and sometimes after running for days..................im printing out your second to last post and reading over it with my pops. i will let you know. thank you!

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  15. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #14
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    yea, i have actually had the two rectangles unbolted from engine, thinking they were getting hot or something. the rev limiter and ignition module were one of our four guesses. my dad read something about eliminating rev limiter but wasnt really sure on how to do it. thanks! will try and let you know

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    I had the same problem last year. I searched this site and found that a few other people had the same problem. Mine started every time when cold . After I'd run it until it got hot and shut it off it would not start- just turn over. It didn't happen every time, but I'd let it cool down about a half hour and it would fire right back up. I replaced the head temp sensor. It cost about $40 delivered. Easy to replace. It hasn't happened since. It may be a starting point.

    Before you replace the sensor though the manual states that for a quick check once the engine is warmed up you can simply unplug the sensor and see if the boat starts to run very rich. If it does not you may have a bad sensor. Just make sure to clean the block well where the sensor bolts on as this is where it receives it's ground from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kshack View Post
    It didn't happen every time, but I'd let it cool down about a half hour and it would fire right back up. I replaced the head temp sensor. It cost about $40 delivered. Easy to replace. It hasn't happened since.
    Yep, that's why I asked the question about whether it happens when cold. The temp sensor causes the injector pulse width to triple, making the fuel/air ratio super rich. But I'd expect the engine to at least show some signs of trying to start, which it doesn't sound like his is doing.

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  18. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #17
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    not too sure about temp sensor idea??? doesnt matter if engine is hot or not.......happens either way. i let it sit for hours sunday, and the thing just wouldnt start.


    on to rev limiter CDI deal..................................after reading your instructions, and looking at engine, i remembered my dad had me do this same thing.....................never tried it when boat was not starting though. only thing that concerns me is that when CDI is unplugged, when i turn engine off, engine still runs 3-5 seconds after killing ignition with key. i guess its better than a engine that wont start but still freaky. im thinking if it has a bad CDI i could always uplug it when it wont start, then after its started, plug it back in and be good???

    i guess all i can do is drive the damn thing till it wont start and try it....................i will get back to you next week! lol thanks for all the help and wish me luck! lemme know if you have any other ideas please

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    I had the same problem with my 2000 challenger. Sometimes it would start, sometimes it wouldnt. Every weekend this was a problem. There was no rhyme or reason when or why. When it was running it would run great, though. I talked to a friend and he turned me on to "star tron" ethanol treatment. Since the first day I started using it 2 summers ago I havent had one problem and it has fired up every time...hope this helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    not too sure about temp sensor idea??? doesnt matter if engine is hot or not.......happens either way. i let it sit for hours sunday, and the thing just wouldnt start.
    It could be a bad/corroded connector on the temp sensor. We'll see.


    on to rev limiter CDI deal..................................after reading your instructions, and looking at engine, i remembered my dad had me do this same thing.....................never tried it when boat was not starting though. only thing that concerns me is that when CDI is unplugged, when i turn engine off, engine still runs 3-5 seconds after killing ignition with key. i guess its better than a engine that wont start but still freaky.
    You'd only do this for testing purposes. Once we figure out what's wrong, you'll fix that and then be back to normal.

    im thinking if it has a bad CDI i could always uplug it when it wont start, then after its started, plug it back in and be good???
    No, because that still leaves a failing/faulty device in the system.

    Remember, you are not testing the CDI's. You are testing everything that can ground the CDI's: Keyswitch, kill switch, rev limiter, and throttle guardian. That's why it's important to disconnect the wire leading to the CDI bank, and not just disconnect the rev limiter... take ALL of them out of the circuit to see if the problem lies there, and if it does then we'll add them back individually to isolate the problem.

    Your CDI's are fine or you would have a rough running engine (when it runs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jus10hall View Post
    I had the same problem with my 2000 challenger. Sometimes it would start, sometimes it wouldnt. Every weekend this was a problem. There was no rhyme or reason when or why. When it was running it would run great, though. I talked to a friend and he turned me on to "star tron" ethanol treatment. Since the first day I started using it 2 summers ago I havent had one problem and it has fired up every time...hope this helps.
    That reminds me, WITZ352: Have you replaced the two external fuel filters? You should do that every year at winterization. If it wasn't done last year, you should do it now. And following the above poster's suggestion (though I don't think this is your problem), you could run some fuel treatment through it. I recommend Seafoam to decarbon the cylinders and generally clean out the fuel system.

    You can do these things anytime, but let's run the CDI kill circuit test first. Your description of the symptoms makes me think the answer is there....

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  22. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #21
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    I changed the big spin on fuel filter a month ago and did numerous fuel treatments.................second fuel filter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    I changed the big spin on fuel filter a month ago and did numerous fuel treatments.................second fuel filter?
    There is an inline fuel filter that screws into the electric fuel pump. It's about the size of a 35mm film canister. The hose coming from the fuel tank connects directly to it. A new one doesn't come with a replacement fuel pump but you may have replaced it when you replaced the pump. Just checking.

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  24. ☑ ORIGINAL POSTER #23
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    Oh yea. Changed that

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    So what now??? Drive it till it fails, then disconnect cdi and check??

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    Quote Originally Posted by WITZ352 View Post
    So what now??? Drive it till it fails, then disconnect cdi and check??
    Exactly. You can't debug what isn't broken. Leave everything normal and run it until the problem occurs again, then isolate that black-with-yellow wire and try restarting. You need to see if something on that kill circuit is the problem.

    Remember, the goal is to isolate the wire running to the CDI's - not just disconnect the rev limiter alone. Find the black-with-yellow wire coming from the spark plug area and make certain it is entirely disconnected. This may require disconnecting two connectors if I recall correctly.

    While you're at it, open and inspect the temp sensor's connector. If it's corroded, the contacts will self-wipe and clean themselves. And you may discover that the connector is intermittent, loose, etc. I don't think the sensor itself is failing because of the intermittent nature of your problem, but a troubled connector might do it.

    Report back!

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