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View Full Version : seadoo Challenger 240 hp m2 wont start



Allstate
07-13-08, 09:56 PM
240hp merc v6 240hp wont start - OK. Here is my story in a nut shell. Bought boat worked great. Winterized boat by paying someone to do this. Following Spring boat would not start. Brought boat to dealer for tuneup and recall on exhaust hoses. I get a call from Seadoo that one cylinder had detonated and I need a new motor. As they quoted $13,000.00. Boat wasnt even worth that In my eyes. Boat sat all summer I finally found a place at a reasonable place for new powerhead. Was going to attempt the replace myself. Looked to complicated so I paid a local Performance shop to do the install. All of a sudden I needed a new starter and starter selenoid. I also needed a new Relay for something else. Not sure what it was for. After all said and done the motor starts only by starting fluid. As per Installer, he said I now need a new MPEM. Its not the price of all the parts that is now concerning me but how all theses parts can go wrong without being used. As far as a new powerhead that in another story. I cant figure out how the boat can get a detonated cyllinder after sitting a winter. The season before I never had loss of power or change in RPMS. Boat went around 54 to 57 mph and ran fine. This is really get to concern me that I am getting taken for a ride. And definetlly not in a my boat.

Also, I have have been reading the forums about a Lanyard switch making a BEEP. I CHECKED THIS OUT AND I DONT GET NO BEEP and also MY fuel primer does not stop clicking. Just this switch refer to me as well.

I have the following boat.

Year 2000 Seadoo Challenger 2000 240hp EFI m2 engine with brand new rebuilt powerhead that cant get started. Only starts with starting fluid and stalls when the fluid is used up. Is this possible that I need a new MPEM and if so where can I get one at a reasonable price.

seadoosnipe
07-14-08, 02:49 AM
Sounds to me, your on an expensive ride.

If your "ECM" (electronic control module) was bad, then they wouldn't be able to get the eletricity to power the coils for spark. There smells something fishy here.

This engine is no toy. This is one of the most powerful Optimax engines (outside the 250) that Mercury ever built. This engine is totally controlled by an Engine Managment system and if all the sensors don't make up the needs of the ECM, you'll get no start.

There are so many things to say about this engine that may help you understand it's function but no way I can try and explain them here. It would be a good idea for you to become a premium member, for a month, just so you can read about this engine. The problem your faced with is, in my opinion, ignorance. Not in a bad way, you just don't know anything about this motor and this would be the best way for you to find out for yourself. Then, armed with knowledge, you can confront the obvious ignoramasses that are working on your motor with "STARTING FLUID".........which no true 2-cycle engine mechanic would ever do!........

Use our search engine above on the tool bar and use key words like M-2 or Mercury........I've made several indepth post on this engine that may help you out..............Good luck. I hope you find a good resolution before you find an empty wallet......................:cheers:

Allstate
07-15-08, 12:28 AM
Ok. I registered with the site as a premium member. Now I really could use some help with my motor.

Number one thing is I want to know an easy way to check to see if my ECM is bad on my boat. It will start when the Mechanic uses starting fluid but wont start without. He says my ECM is bad. IS this possible?

2000 Seadoo Challenger 2000
w/ 240hp Mercury v-6 M2.

I also read in some of the forums that the boat will make a beep when key is turned. IS this true for my boat?

Also the primer pump never stops clicking.

Thanks for "ANY" help.

My Daughter has her first REGATTA Friday and really would like to be oput there to watch. Please help

Thanks,

Allstate

fishman1000
07-15-08, 01:26 AM
if your a member you can down load the repair manual that is very detailed on trouble shooting. I have a 98 seadoo challanger and down loaded the manual and it has everything including how to rebuilt your engine. I would start there since you are a member it's free just click on seadoo manual pick your year and download good luck

seadoosnipe
07-15-08, 05:09 AM
Allstate, thanks for supporting the forum, but like Fishman states, the manual is at your figertips. You have to look into it and gain information, so that you'll get an understanding of how this engine works. There is no one here who can give you the "quick fix" on this engine. When you get help here, the results you receive are only as good as the information you give.

I can help you get started though. Go to the top of the page and look for manuals....click on it. Then, go to the M-2 manual and click on it. Now, it covers from the 200 thru the 240, so make sure you aren't reading a section on the 200 or the 210hp engine.

Start at page 2A-31. Here, you will find there is one electronic control module that controls 6 CDM's (closed capacitor modules) along with a trouble shooting flow-chart guide. If your getting spark to the plugs, your problem is going to be related to a fuel system requirement, probably from the ECM not being received or like the clicking sound your hearing, not getting what it needs to work properly.

After reading about the ignition system, you may want to move on down to the fuel system, and read about the clicking noise before you get to involved with the troubleshooting flow chart on the CDM's.

I hope I've been of some help to you in your quest to find a solution to your problem. But what you need to do now, is read that manual, the ECM and CDM section and the fuel system. After you understand enough, you'll need to go back to the engine and perform a few tests to find your problem. I feel that only through these tests can you eliminate the possible things wrong till you come up with a "root cause" for the engine not running on it's own.

Thank you again for supporting the forum. There are members here willing to help you as much as they can. There is a member here I worked with some time back, member name is "Scarfie". He has the same engine as you. Look him up from the members list above. Click to see his personal profile. Then, you can click on the threads he's created. Read his threads. You may find something useful there too.

Scottsmach03
07-15-08, 11:50 AM
If your able to start it with starter fluid your not getting fuel. Check to see if your fuel pump is clicking on. On my motor it is located on the right side of the motor(facing the rear of the boat). It also could be your choke. My boat sat for a while and some how the choke quit working. I manually choked it by covering the carb ports with my hand and was able to get started. After running it for a few hours I haven't had the problem since.

Allstate
07-15-08, 01:51 PM
Thanks Scottsmach03, but my motor is EFI no choke. My main concern on this boat is that the ECM is "NOT" bad. Its in the shop, but sort of a backwoods shop shop because I couldnt afford to have SEADOO fix the original problem. I dont mind paying someone to fix the boat as long as its what they tell me. I find it hard to believe that the ECM is bad.

I have read the MANUAL and there are alot of things to check. Feels like Im thrown to the wolves here.

Is it possible that even though the engine runs with starting fluid that the ECM can still be BAD.

Thanks for all your support

seadoosnipe
07-15-08, 02:54 PM
No, if you got spark at the plugs, the ECM is good. You don't have a diesel, you have a gas engine. The problem is systematic and your problem is probably an easy one to find. It's just that, without me actually being there, to try and use the manual, through process of elimination or you coming back and saying " hey, o.k., I found the (hypothetically speaking) the black and yellow wire from this box to that part is grounded. Will this cause my problem?"........

Your not being thrown to the wolves. We will do all we can to help you. But you have to help too!....we can't access your problem by the description, "hey my motor will start with starting fluid but won't run on it's own". There are way to many contributing factors here. I"ve tried to lead you in the right direction as to what you can do to allow us to help more. But, you have got to help out here..........

Detonation can be seen on the head of the piston. It looks like someone shot it with buckshot. Little dimples in it. The idea that "you ain't got no beep", really doesn't apply to your problem. The clicking on your fuel pump may be another good place to start. In the manual, there is a test on the fuel system and the injection. I haven't heard any results that you may have followed any of the procedures outlined there in troubleshooting either.

If this post shows signs of frustration, it's because I'm becoming frustrated. We are not the "repair" guy that you hired or are we able to ask "them" a question as it is obvious, you do not know. Quit making excuses and expecting us to perform some kind of miracle. We can't.

I"d really love to tell you, "hey, this is your problem and do this, your daughter will be able to go out to the regatta". YOU have to take action yourself. Then, after you do and get confused and need help, then we can and will, be more than happy to do all we can to help YOU in figuring it out.

Please, your participation in finding a resolution to the problem is entirely on your shoulders. We need more info as to what is testing good and what is not. The parts replaced in your first post, probably didnt' need replacing if the machine ran as you described when you put it away. This probably started as an easy problem and now has grown into this huge, expensive project where you have someone working from an old school form of mechanical knowledge. The electrical and fuel system controlling your engine has got to be tested by the procedures. If these guys working on your boat have no manual, maybe it would be in your best interest in talking with them, letting them know that you have a "data base" access for them to use. They may be experienced mechanics but ill informed on what it is their looking for.

Allstate
07-15-08, 03:53 PM
First I want to say I am just venting and I have nobody else to talk with. My wife is up my A$$ and I am hearing it from all ends. I would like to take this time to say I "REALLY" do appreciate your time and I hope you except my forgiveness . I am being pressed by the Mechanic to buy the new ECM but really dont want to if not needed. I believe he is a good guy but I dont know him well enough to trust him. I would take your advice and check with my meter all the procedures that need to checked, BUT, the problem I have is that he has the boat at the shop. AT this point it is going to cost me another $1300.00 dollars. Its not the money, I have it. Just concerned that I am paying for someone else's boat to be repaired. (There is same boat at shop with similar problem)

From what he told me, everything is working great. Plugs get spark, Coil packs are good, but just wont send fuel to the injectors. Injectors are good as well.

So my main concern is it possible to, like a car, hook up some sort of computer to it and it will tell me from a series of checks what may be wrong.

Thanks Again - and sorry for being crabby - $6000.00 in hole already :(

rexsteiner
07-15-08, 06:03 PM
did the mechanic give you a reason why he thinks its the ecm? what did he do to diagnose it as that? Maybe you should go to the shop and have him SHOW how he diagnosed it as that. especialy if the ecm controls the spark, and the spark is fine.

it sounds to me like in one corner you have a group of people who are not out to take any money and want to help but need more info in order to do that. and in the other corner you have a guy who is making money on this and needs you to make up your mind.

If it were me, i would get as much of the information on what is going on with this boat even while its been in the mechanics hands. what was changed, what was tested, and what kind of readings were taken and post them on here.

everyone here is here to help and we cant do it with out your ambition to help us help you. the information that you gather may not only help you out but it may also help others out that read you posts in the future.

Allstate
07-15-08, 06:27 PM
Thanks Rex for the support....

First thing was I needed a powerhead.
2nd Thing was I needed a new starter.
Third thing was I needed a new starter relay.
Fourth thing I needed a new Primer relay.
Now I need according to the Mechanic is a new ECM module.

He said he did all th tests needed with ohm meter. The bottom line he said is this:

The boat gets spark, turns over and starts only when Starting fluid is sprayed right into some port for the fuel injectors. The problem he said was the ECM was not telling the fuel pump or primer, not sure which one, to sent gas to the fuel rails. Resulting in a new ECM. As per MEchanic.

From what I read in the SHOP manual there can be multitude of things to check: Ranging from ANTI-SYPHON VALVE IN GAS TANK. to Pressure regulators as well as fuel pump. But again I dont have the boat to check these things out myself. Im not an idiot. I do have an ELECTRICAL CONTRACTINg business and know how to read the wiring diagrams and check ohms with my FLUKE multimeter. BUT I HAVE NO BOAT TO TEST. In shop

I really would like to know if there is a Data cable to plug into this ECM to find out what is the problem, like a car has.

Thanks Again - very disappointed!

rexsteiner
07-15-08, 06:59 PM
it should tell you in the manual if it has a com. link. seadoo uses what is called the B.U.D. system (Bombardier utility diagnostic system). its a software that only the seadoo dealer has access to to read trouble codes.
if your boat uses this, the manual will say. im sure it probly does though.

oh yeah, forgot one of these ":cheers:"

Allstate
07-18-08, 01:42 AM
Well as I mentioned before. The mechanic that is working on my Engine, I believe, is taking me for a ride. He told me that there is no fuel being sent to the fuel rail and that is controlled by the ECM. Resulting in I need a new ECM 1600.00 installed with labor.
There are a few items to check to see if the fuel is being sent. Number 1: there are Electric Fuel pumps (1 in vapor seperator; and 1 before the pulse pump after the gas tank. Number 2 Electrically would be

Allstate
07-18-08, 01:55 AM
Well as I mentioned before. The mechanic that is working on my Engine, I believe, is taking me for a ride. He told me that there is no fuel being sent to the fuel rail and that is controlled by the ECM. Resulting in I need a new ECM 1600.00 installed with labor.

There are a few items to check to see if the fuel is being sent. Number 1: there are (2) Electric Fuel pumps (1 in Fuel Vapor seperator; and 1 before the pulse pump after the gas tank. Number 2 Fuel pulse pump. Number 3: Water Fuel Seperator.

The fuel pump in the vapor separator has all the correct voltages as per manual.
And I here the pulse pump clicking.( But does not stop). Pressure regulator must not be getting the correct fuel pressure(between 34 and 36psi).

Having said that! That leaves me with a few options to check. 1 the First Electric Fuel Pump and the Anti-Syphon valve in the gas tank.<- AS PER MANUAL.

Getting back to my statement on think I am being ripped off! Either of the two problems above has nothing to do with the ECM. (I dont believe so anyway).

As for the pump should turn on with battery as well as the Anti Syphon valve.
I didn't get to check the First PUMP for voltage yet for the Syphon Valve. I will check that tomorrow and keep everyone posted.

Meanwhile, does anyone else have any other ideas why my mechanic would say I need a new ECM (Electronic Control Module).

Thanks Allstate - Fighting an up hill battle

rexsteiner
07-18-08, 08:32 AM
Its probly a last resort for him. He's gona shotgun parts into it until he finds the right one. At your expense too

Scottsmach03
07-18-08, 06:29 PM
Check ebay, or other boat facilitys for a ECM. Buy the ECM yourself; alot of time they just plugin. I would scower the internet for a ECM before coughing up 1600.00.

Allstate
07-20-08, 01:17 PM
ok as of today still no luck in finding an ECM for my seadoo challenger 2000 year 2000 with 240hp v-6 m2 EFI engine. If anyone has any ideas where I can find one that would be much appreciated. I still dont know if I need one or not but would like to have the resource readily available. I just got boat back and I am going to perform a series of tests to see what I can do



THANKS - Allstate.......

seadoosnipe
07-20-08, 02:12 PM
O.K..........thanks for the work your doing in reading the manual. I don't think the ECM is bad. I think, from your description, that your problem is going to be in the fuel system. Probably the primer.

Check this primer for fuel pressure. I don't know that exact procedure yet, but will read up on it with you. My gut instinct says to remove the fuel line on the outlet side of the primer, turn on the power and see if fuel is moving through it. Your problem may be no more than the primer.

It's good of you not to have blind faith. I wish all of the other members were like that. Then they wouldn't be here crying about all the money they lost.

I'm sorry your daughter missed the regatta in your boat. But you have shown that YOU want to fix your boat. I apologize for being so hard, but you must understand, I can only be in your thought process for analyzing your problem. You are the eyes and hands. I can only be as good as you relate the issues. The more your educated on this engine, the more you'll be able to help me.

I'll be checking into your fuel system now and seeing what I can come up with that might keep your fuel rail from receiving the fuel.

I'm still not convinced that your ECM is bad.

I'll do my best to finish my reading and research by the evening. Thanks for understanding my position, now I'll do all I can to help you get this thing running.

Allstate
07-20-08, 06:17 PM
Thanks Snipe for all your help. I really do appreciate it.

Well today is a little bitter sweet for me. After a series of test on the "FUEL" system I came to the conclusion that my Fuel Pump in the Vapor Separator seems to be bad.

How do I know?.......

Well I completely removed the Vapor separator and disassembled the unit. Upon further inspection I noticed that the container was really dirty. The manual said to check the "FINAL FILTER" which is connected to the FUEL PUMP(really dirty).
TO really clean it properly I removed all the components. Luckily for me, this seemed to be a blessing in disguise. Which I will get back to that statement at the end.

As far as the FUEL PUMP I hooked it up straight to a battery and I got nothing. So that tells me I needed a FUEL PUMP in the VAPOR SEPARATOR. The only bad thing about this the manual doesnt tell me a part number. Can anyone help me out here with that replacement part. AS FAR as OEM or equivalent. That would explain to me why I get no fuel to the FUEL RAIL. :)

Getting back to a blessing in disguise..........

While cleaning the VAPOR SEPARATOR at the very bottom is a intake from the OIL PUMP. That was completely clogged. Do you think that had anything to do with my ORIGINAL problem of replacing my powerhead? The mechanic said I detonated one of my cylinders from lack of oil. Which to me would make sense.

So having said that today seems to be bitter sweet for me. AS far as the LOCAL POWER SPORT mechanic he should be ashamed of himself for not checking ALL these things out before hand. Luckily for me I am quite handy. I hope that this seems to fix my problem.

In search for FUEL PUMP in VAPOR SEPARATOR...........

Thanks again...I will keep everyone posted.

Allstate
07-21-08, 07:56 AM
Anyone know where I can purchased a fuel pump for my Merc v-6 240hp m2 efi at a reasonable price. This pump is in My Vapor separator.

seadoosnipe
07-21-08, 11:49 AM
I came in to copy and paste my results of my research on your motor but from reading your last two post, it seems you have already came up with the same conclusion. I'll see if I can find that part number for you.

I'm still going to send you a PM, please read.

I think I found your fuel pump, although I'm a bit confused. You said the fuel pump was inside your water seperator. The only thing inside the water seperater is the water sensor, at the bottom.

Anyway, here's a link to the fuel pump that I saw in the drawing to the page number I sent you. This place, Crowley Marine, is a reputable distributer of Mercury parts..........good luck!......... http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_parts/7596/60.cfm pump is part 25.

Allstate
07-21-08, 08:20 PM
Hey Snipe. I got your PM. Again I really want to thank you AGAIN. All I have to say is it helps to be Mechanically inclined.

If I mentioned "water separator" I meant "VAPOR" Separator. By the was that little pump lists for $631.00. OEM. I almost hit the floor. Luckily for me my neighbors father works for a MERCURY DEALER and got me a pump for cost. $363.00. I wont have it until Thursday. But I am getting excited.

Again I will keep you posted.

P.S. I own an ELECTRICAL CONTRACTING business and I have a very good reputation on being FAIR and HONEST. I sleep at night. To me it seems like alot of these so called mechanics out there sleep with one eye open. If you ever need any advice on ELECTRICAL please feel free to contact me. I use Windows Messenger LIVE. USER name or Contact is ALLSTATEELECTRIC@hotmail.com

Oh yeah did you read what I posted about the OIL INJECTOR being clogged. Could you imagine after ALL THIS, I could of ended up with the same problem of BLOWN POWER-HEAD. Unbelievable!!:cheers:

Thanks Again.

Allstate
07-24-08, 12:55 AM
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers::cheers:

Fuel Pump in "VAPOR SEPARATOR" - $363.00 and 2 hours of labor on me :hurray::driving:

Well people today was a very good day for me! I got the boat running and I did not need a new ECU. To all those people who have problems out there, keep your head up and nose to the grind stone. All it takes is a little patience, some great guidance and these forums. As well as the great people that we have here.

My intension was to be member for 1 month just to receive the online shop manual, but I can truley say that I am going to continue to support this great website. The site is amazingly helpful as well as the members and guests.

Special thanks to SEADOOSNIPE :cheers::Angel:

Again THANK YOU,

member for life......ALLSTATE

Allstate
08-08-08, 07:43 PM
Well as far as the boat running this was a great story that may end bad. After several attempts to contact the mechanic about my boat I finally confronted him at his shop. Police was called and everything.:confused:

A lesson learned here people. Never pay a mechanic or anyone else cash for services performed because It will not ever work in your favor. The story goes like this:

Mechanic was paid to install new powewrhead ( I brought him this in a box with parts). After looking at everything he told me he would charge me $1000.00 to put motor back together and get it running. OK Fine. At that point he wanted $400.00 deposit. (Seemed odd to me since there was no parts needed at that time - just labor) So I gave him a $400.00 check made to cash. At that point I said to call me if there is any problems to address and would come and speak with him. After everything was said and done the ending result was I needed a new COMPUTER for boat because he said so. After discussing I really didnt have the money to do this I gave him $900.00 cash anyway to order a new ECM. After a week and no call I decided to get my boat back to wash and clean and fix boat seats - as I told him I was originally going to do. After I few test and these forums I came to the conclusion that this guy was taking me for a ride. even after I found out the computer was bad I still could not get in touch with this guy. His shop number was disconnected, never there and never called me back. I finally got his "EMPLOYEE" to call him while I was there and I told him he needs to call right away its very inportant - the result was he would call me back in 20 minutes - Never did. Again going there three other times to find him a tell him he mis diagnosed the problem no call no show. I "TEXTED" him several times and still no response. So when I did confront him today all I wanted was a reciept that I payed him $1300.00 dollars and I would move on. This guy had the nerve to tell me his lawyer has all the paper work and will contact me with the issuses we had. HOLY COW! Now we have Lawyers involved. Where did this come from. So I told him I was not leaving his property till he gives me a receipt. So he calls the cops on me and tells the cop I never payed him the money. For real?...............Moral of story never pay anyone cash that you think you may have a problem with. Matter fact never pay anyone cash no matter what. Get the receipt so that everyone involved can be protect from the he said she said stuff.........

Again HOLY COW..........Sorry to vent on this thread just thought I should warn people out there about the SHADY people trying to rob people.

PS.....Oh yeah by the way BOAT still does not run while in water only when out.

Allstate
08-08-08, 07:56 PM
Read thread above this ........

Now that I figured out how to send pic of boat motor I will send pic