PDA

View Full Version : Oil Help Please!



tripn4days
06-12-08, 10:45 AM
Sorry for the newbie Q's but I just bought my first two skis a few days ago.

The previous owner gave me a half gallon of 2 Stroke XP-S Mineral Oil and after reading a few posts here, there, and everywhere, I think I'm just thoroughly confused now.

So here's the situation/question:

I went to "top off" the oil tank (about .75L) on my 1995 Sea Doo SPI (587cc Rotax) and as I was pouring in the new oil I noticed it was brown in color. The oil in the tank is blue.

Now I just got done reading post http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?t=940 which states:


"What is the final verdict on mixing these two types of oils. I read that it was not a problem mixing Seadoo's XP Mineral with Synthetic as long as they are both Seadoo's XP oils.

I'm asking this because the oil in my tank right now is a dark blueish in color. I just bought a gallon of XP Mineral and and a buddy gave me two gallons of XP Synthetic."

The reply by SEADOOSNIPE says it's ok to mix the brown synthetic with the older blue synthetic no problem... but NOT to mix the mineral oil with the synthetic.

So my question is: does the "S" in XP-S stand for synthetic? It says "mineral oil" on the top right corner of the front label. So is this XP-S stuff safe to blend with the blue stuff that's already in the tank?

I called the previous owner and he said the blue stuff wasn't sold near him and "they" (whoever that is) told him to use this stuff instead. He added this XP-S mineral oil to the blue oil already (my guess is about half a gallon of it) and the hours of runtime since then are unknown... but I ran it for about 10 minutes on the lake yesterday (it was already dusk, but I was dying to ride it)

Today I called my local Sea Doo dealer and they said I could add this to the blue stuff, but that once you go to synthetic you can't switch back; but they were really busy and I'm not sure they totally understood what I was asking... Also, I don't know if this XP-S Mineral INjection Oil is a synthetic, the word "synthetic" doesn't show up anywhere on the front or back labels.

I'd REALLY hate to blow this thing up before I even got any hours on her; so any help here would be greatly appreciated.

kustomkarl
06-12-08, 11:03 AM
Here is the correct info on oil XP-S is just seadoo's name for oil....It doesn't mean it is synthetic or mineral the container is used for either...it's their brand. The container must say either Mineral Or synthetic to be that oil.
Synthetic and synthetic blend is almost brown in color. Mineral is blue in color. YOU CAN NOT MIX THE TWO TOGETHER! It will cause problems big time.
Here is the correct information on oil.

Use High quality low ASH API TC Injector oil.
Do Not use NMMA TC-W, TC-W2 or TC-W3 outboard motor oils or other ash less type 2 cycle oil. Avoid mixing different brands of API TC oil as resulting chemical reaction will cause severe engine damage. Never mix Mineral or Synthetics oil together.

Never use fuel containing more than 10 % alcohol,( Methanol or Ethanol) as severe damage will occur. The minimum of 87 octane is recommended for most engines.
If in doubt you need to drain out the injector oil and start over fresh. If you aren't sure let us know and we'll explain on how to do just that. If you're sure you have the correct oil than you'll be ok.

Karl

seadoosnipe
06-12-08, 11:28 AM
If an engines lubrication system is honed in to burning the synthetic blend, then burning a lower quality mix (mineral oil) will not damage the engine If it is completely changed out completely and started over fresh.

If the engine has lived it's life on mineral oil and you add synthetic, it changes the oiling properties drastically and will cause engine damage.

Now, when I say you can go from mineral to synthetic, this means, that when your oil tank is almost empty, or you drain the oil from the tank, you do have to do a complete evacuation of the rotary and oil injection lines. But if your going to change over to synthetic, then all the oil from the rotary and injection system must be removed and then re-primed.

The rule of thumb that we observe in the forum is by Karl's post. Thats because, it is extremly (cost effective from engine damage) smarter to err on the side of over kill, then it is to do the least and get screwed.

So, in that said, follow Karls guidlines.

timmyboy76
06-12-08, 12:22 PM
Dont think, a little mineral oil will hurt...tank, filter, lines....the priming, should prime itself, by gravity, you'll see it come up the return tube,..but have a few rags on hand.
Can try take'n hose from bottom of resivoir off and blow'n air to push old oil thru retun line, into a jug...so your not disconnecting from motor spigots
The line with filter is for oil pump...

kustomkarl
06-12-08, 12:33 PM
If you using mineral oil keep using mineral oil. (It's cheaper too) It is possible that the older mineral was brown...but I know all the synthetic and synthetic blend now is like a brown color. I have not seen anything different than the 10 % posted on the pumps for the fuel recommendation. I haven't heard anything wrong with BP either...If you know of any reason to avoid the fuel stations for some reason let me know.

Here is a step by step if you decide to change the oil system over;

After you drain the oil from the oil lines and refill them, you have to be sure there is no air in the lines when the engine starts up or it will cause the engine to seize up. You need to fill the oil lines back up with oil. To drain the oil from the Rotary Valve Chamber, use a shop vac to suck the oil out of the hose…it’s the one that is 3/8” diameter. I attach the empty lines back to tank and fill the tank. The oil line going to the oil injector pump attaches to a elbow fitting on allows the oil to flow to the pump. I let the oil drain into the oil line to the pump first and put a small cup at the end of the oil line, to catch the oil coming out of the end of full line. Attach the full oil line to the elbow on the oil pump. There is a bleeder screw on the pump. Lay a rag under the bleeder screw. Open the bleeder screw till the pump has oil coming out. Tighten the bleeder screw. Be sure the oil is full in the small 2 lines also. Let the oil seep out the ends of the small lines to fill the lines as best as you can. Connect the 2 small oil lines from the pump to the carburetors. Where the cable is connected is a Disk,(pump lever) that the cable is attached to. Check that the mark on the pump aligns with the mark on the disk. Apply the throttle with the ENGINE OFF and check that the cable is in sync with the oil injector cable. They should move open and close at the same time. To bleed the 2 small lines and get the bubbles out, start the engine, on the water hose. DO NOT APPLY THROTTLE. Let the engine IDLE. Turn the Disk,( pump lever) that the oil injector cable is attached to, to full open so the air bubbles travel to the carburetors and leave no bubbles in the line. Don’t run the seadoo for more than a couple minutes on the hose.
For the Rotary Valve Gear Shaft, attach the hose on the tank and allow the oil to fill the hose and attach it to the case. Recheck all the oil lines and be sure they aren't leaking any oil. If you still have any questions give us a shout.


I hope this helps you out.

Karl

kustomkarl
06-12-08, 12:54 PM
If you have a problem with oils, it could be done in about less than a tank of fuel consumption. The oil would have a reaction like...mixing oil and vinegar and letting them settle.

Karl

tripn4days
06-12-08, 01:02 PM
If you using mineral oil keep using mineral oil. (It's cheaper too) It is possible that the older mineral was brown...but I know all the synthetic and synthetic blend now is like a brown color.

Basically, my original two questions were:

1. Is the blue oil mineral oil? That's what I was unsure of. (Somebody told me Amsco Synthetic is blue... can anyone verify?)

2. The new stuff I am adding is brown; but it IS labeled XPS MINERAL OIL so it should be fine to mix, yes?



FYI: As far as gas goes, BP is less than 50% petro. It is mostly additives. I have a friend who manages a BP station and during his training he was advised against using their own gas in his vehicles because the high amount of additives tends to harden/rot seals. Volkswagen owners manuals (I've owned several) specifically advise against using BP gas. I couldn't say for sure one way or another that it will hurt your vehicles, this is just what I've read and heard, so I never buy their gas unless it is an emergency and they are the only station around. ;)

kustomkarl
06-12-08, 02:06 PM
Basically, my original two questions were:

1. Is the blue oil mineral oil? That's what I was unsure of. (Somebody told me Amsco Synthetic is blue... can anyone verify?)

2. The new stuff I am adding is brown; but it IS labeled XPS MINERAL OIL so it should be fine to mix, yes?



FYI: As far as gas goes, BP is less than 50% petro. It is mostly additives. I have a friend who manages a BP station and during his training he was advised against using their own gas in his vehicles because the high amount of additives tends to harden/rot seals. Volkswagen owners manuals (I've owned several) specifically advise against using BP gas. I couldn't say for sure one way or another that it will hurt your vehicles, this is just what I've read and heard, so I never buy their gas unless it is an emergency and they are the only station around. ;)

To answer your question, I have no Idea what Amsco mineral or synthetic oil is in color. I only know what Seadoo XP-S is ...Synthetic and Synthetic Blend is Brownish. Seadoo XP-S Mineral is blueish... If in doubt as to the oil in the seadoo now " DRAIN IT AND START OUT FRESH SO YOU KNOW"! Don't guess and loose your engine from a seizure of the wrong oil.

I hope this clears up your mind as to what to do. If you still have questions PM me directly.:)

Karl

seadoosnipe
06-12-08, 05:56 PM
Karl and I had a very long and in-depth discussion on the issue with all the oil questions that are coming into the forum now. About 6 or 7 months ago, I did an indepth research on the pro's and con's of the two (synthetic and mineral) oils.

There are good on both sides, but the benefits of running the synthetic, is, according to science, the best choice in oil. The Super Charged and the SCIC engines have no choice. According to the operators manual, they are suppose to use mineral blend, 10w-40w mineral. That's because the ceramic washers deteriate from the properities of the synthetic oil. The newer SC and SCIC 4-TEC engines have made the change to steel clutch washers and I'm sure (but haven't checked) that the new oil requirements will be directed to the synthetic.

Please, do not judge the oil color in your tank, to determine the type oil you are using. Each manafacturer, Seadoo, Amsoil, QuickSilver, and any other non NMMA, non TCW-3 oil distributer, has a color code to their oil. So whereas one synthetic oil for QuickSilver for instance could be purple, that may be the same color as the Amsoil's mineral blend.

Please, make every attempt to find out the oil type/grade that the previous owner used before attempting to add oil to your tank. If you can't, a complete change out of the tank will ensure your not going to mix oils together that may not be compatible.

The following is a good read, talking about the differences between Mineral oil and Synthetic oil. You might find it enlightening.

If you have any question as to what you should do, or what type oil you should be using, please make a post. I, or any other staff that reviews that post, will make sure you are getting the right information to protect your investment.

Since the synthetic oil thickens less on shutdown your startup will be easier and so will the stress on your engine. This is perhaps the best thing the synthetic class has over the mineral based oils.
People sometimes use a thicker oil to minimize gasket leaks. This seems obvious to me. Repair the gasket. Do not destroy your engine with an oil that is too thick for proper function.
Some people have said they use thicker oils because they only use their cars every 2, 3 or 4 weeks. They are afraid that thin oils will fall off the engine parts and result in a lack of lubrication at startup. Think about your lawn mower over the winter. I gets gummed up solid. The oil and fuel thicken over time resulting in engine failure. Anyway, oil on the surface of parts does not lubricate. It is the FLOW of oil between parts that lubricates. Thick, old, waxy oil can only be bad.
I have seen several car owner manuals that are now stating that oils do not need to be changed but every 7,500 miles or more. The same manual also states OR every 12 months, whichever occurs first. My feeling is that you can probably go 5,000 miles on the average (in a sports car) but you must change your oil in the spring time at a minimum, particularly up north. Oils form waxes in icy cold weather. There is a permanent thickening of the oil.
Some automotive manufacturers are backing down on oil change intervals to 5,000 miles or less and some advocate changing the oil at least every 6 months as well. I think this is because of the tendency for oils to thicken in very hot engines (not ambient conditions, just hot engines). Also because of thickening from the cold of winter and from sludge build up that cannot be filtered out.
I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 weight oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 weight oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils.
As it turns out synthetic oils do cling to parts better as they have higher film strength than mineral oils. Synthetics are thinner overall. They have greater slipperiness. Yet they stick better to engine parts. Again, this concept is the opposite of normal thinking.
The thickness of moving oil is measured in centiStokes or cS. Most engines want the oil viscosity to be around 10 cS at normal operating temperature. The really thick multigrade oils have a viscosity of 20 cS at operating temperature. One is not twice as thick as the other, it is only 10 cS thicker.
As we increase the heat from 212 F to 302 F the most commonly recommended oil thins from 10 cS to 3 cS. The thicker oil drops from 20 cS to 4 cS. Note that in a very hot engine the difference between the two oils is now only 1 - 2 cS. In other words they have about the same thickness. There is little advantage to a thicker based oil as a 20W-50 at very high temperatures. No, the 4 cS oil is not twice as thick as the 2 or 3 cS oil. This difference is almost insignificant.
There is a huge advantage of using the thinner, 10W-30 at startup where 90 percent of the engine wear occurs. At 75 F the thicker oil has a viscosity in the range of 250 cS while the thinner oil has a viscosity of 100 cS. The thicker stuff is 150 cS thicker. This is a very big difference. I am using the 20W-50 as my thicker oil example here.
People are always asking about adding things as Slick 50 into the oil tank. Do not do this. The oil companies and engine manufacturers work together very hard to give you the product you need. Engines are running hotter, longer with more BHP from less CID. Smaller, more efficient engines are getting us more MPG and yet better acceleration. These engines last longer and are more reliable.
Part of that reason is the nature of the lubricants. There is a lot of competition to get us the best working motor oil. Independent additives cannot make the oil better and in many cases makes things worse. There have been engine failures as a result of adding some of these aftermarket additives to motor oil.
Motor oil that is labeled for RACING ONLY is not usable for every day driving. Often these have more additives that are toxic to your catalytic converters and the environment. These oils generally do not have detergents. These are very important for your engine unless you plan on taking it apart every few weeks and cleaning every single surface. The oils do not meet the API / SAE requirements for ratings as SJ, SL or now SM.
You do not need to use the exact oil type and brand that your car manual tells you to use. Oils are pretty general. They are not that different. Ferrari is married to Shell. If you call them up and ask to use Valvoline instead they will tell you that they have not tested that brand in their cars. They only tested the engine with Shell oils. They cannot comment on the performance of other oils in their engines. This is a fair statement. The reality is that the Shell and Valvoline oils of the same specification (viscosity, API and SAE ratings, synthetic or not) are very similar. ( I do have my bullet proof vest on ).
People often say that their old 1980 car manual says to use a specific Brand-X motor oil. They keep trying to locate these older oils. First, just about any oil brand that meets the original specifications will do. Second, all oils are much, much better now. They are all much better. One could say that synthetic oils are better than mineral oils but is is hard to say that one brand is that much better than any other. Personally, I do stick to the big names. It does not mean that small motor oil companies are not as good. They could be better for all I know.
Using an oil that is less thick at startup has other benefits. Let us compare a synthetic 10W-30 to a mineral based 10W-30. Both give you a viscosity of 10 cS at normal engine operating temperatures. They both thin to 3 cS at high temperatures. At 75 F tomorrow morning the story will be different. The startup viscosity of the synthetic will be 50 whereas the mineral based 10W-30 will be 75. Again, both are too thick at startup but the synthetic will cause less startup time period wear and tear. You will get a little better gas mileage too.
The synthetic lubricated engine will turn over easier. This has the effect of using less power from your starter motor. It will last longer. Your battery has less of a current draw. This will also last longer. The battery was discharged less during the start so the alternator will rob less power from your engine to recharge. The alternator lasts longer and you get a little better gas economy. The only downside of synthetic lubricants is the cost. They cost 2 or 3 times as much as mineral based oils. Never-the-less I use plain Pennzoil multigrade mineral based 5W-20 in my Ford Expedition. This oil is thin enough at startup to have many of the attributes I just mentioned.

http://www.focfloridaregion.com/

tripn4days
06-12-08, 10:50 PM
Thanks for all you hard work on trying to figure this thing out!